Designing the Dallas You Love: Parks, Trails & Neighborhood Legacy

Chuck: Robert Deckard and the Belo
Corporation just who had been longtime

sponsors of the journalism department
at the University of Texas, Austin.

They went down and said to the city
parks department and said, we'd like

to see the, the Dallas Parks Master
plan, and they said, we don't have one.

After George Kessler and all of his
impact, there was not a master plan

for for parks in the city of downtown
or or in the city of Dallas, and

specifically for downtown Dallas.

You're listening to Building
Dallas by Arrington Roofing.

Landscapes and feral animals and birds
and others are, are outside 365 days.

Anything that's living outdoors
is subject to the whims of

Mother Earth and the weather.

Well, look, you know, I have found
that landscapes are like belly buttons.

Everybody's got one and
everyone is different.

It's a true, it's a true statement.

From

Chase: sunrise commutes to stormy nights,
from tough builds to big ideas, we're

shaping the future of North Texas.

One story at a time.

Welcome to building Dallas.

Chris: In our podcast today, I've
got with me a long time friend,

but a, an incredible landscape
architect, Chuck McDaniel.

And Chuck and I, uh, both live in
the Kessler Park area of Dallas,

which is the other side of town,
but it's really pretty and, uh.

TI got to know Chuck through
a mutual friend Rick Lawson.

Uh, 'cause Chuck was the, the chief of
the, in, of the Oak, cliff Indian Nation

Indian Guides with now it was Matthew.

At the time it was
Matthew and then Andrew.

And then Andrew.

And so we started it.

Chuck was the chief and he came
by our little group and had

his headdress on everything.

And all the boys just loved it.

And then eventually I ended
up being chief of the same

organization and it was just Chuck.

Those were, those were some fun times.

Growing up in Oak Cliff and
getting to know each other

and going on camp outs and,

Chuck: well, they were Chris.

And, you know, while I truly enjoyed
the, the Indians with the y you know, uh,

enjoyed that time with my, my children.

I enjoyed that time with those fathers
who some of 'em were still here.

Mm-hmm.

But there's one legacy that lives
today that came out of my time as

Chief of the Indians and, uh, you're
involved in that legacy in that, uh,

I wanted to have entertainment one
night and so I asked our friend Rick

Lawson to provide some music for us.

Right.

And so Rick was more than happy
to, but he wanted to kind of,

uh, enlarge that opportunity.

So he got Tom, Tom Emery and
he got, uh, Steve Fer and he

got you and things, and it.

And this is a, a group of men
that became the happy campers.

And so, you know, I was, uh, to
the happy campers, uh, what, uh,

Brian Epstein was to the Beatles.

Chase: There you

Chuck: go.

And so, I love it.

I'm, I'm really proud of that.

In fact, uh, I, uh, do remind Rick
of that, uh, every now and then.

And, and he's, he kind of grunts
at me like Rick does, you know?

Oh,

Chris: yeah.

Because it's his band.

It's his band, believe me,

Chuck: it's his band.

Yeah, it's his band.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna
have to interview Rick.

Yeah.

So, so he gets a

Chris: rebuttal.

Chuck: But anyway, that, you know,
that was one of those things that

came out of living in Kessler Park
and, and, uh, one of those, and

there's many things like that Yeah.

That, that have happened,
uh, over the years.

And so, you know, uh.

Marcy and I raised a Matthew and
Andrew here in, in, uh, Oak Cliff.

And, and I'm happy to say that
today that, uh, our youngest son,

Andrew and his wife Kristen, they
have returned to, to live and,

Chris: and has in park

Chuck: and have a, my
first grandson, Thomas

Chris: Thomas, you

Chuck: know, and Kristen has a
thriving business in the Bishop

hearts, uh, called all the good things.

So visit all Oh,

Chris: that's right.

Yeah, yeah.

Visit all the good things.

Chuck: So the McDaniels have been kind
of entrenched in Kesler Park since I

first discovered Kessler Park in 1983.

Yeah.

I started my life as a professional
person in Houston for three years,

and then I came with my firm, SWA,
to, to start the Dallas office with

my mentor, a guy named Jim Reeves.

But anyway, we've been here and
I'm happy to know that that.

The McDaniel, uh, lineage, living
in this wonderful neighborhood.

Uh, you called it a good
neighborhood or whatever you said.

I thought it was a little bit an
understatement of what you said,

but Kessler Park and Oak Cliff is
really the, the most fascinating,

uh, neighborhood that I've know of
in, in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

And, and, and, uh, I, I hope you'll
ask me about some of my work,

because even, even this neighborhood
has played a part in my work.

Well, uh, George Kessler, yeah.

That's named after,

Chris: was.

A landscape architect.

Chuck: Well, and IJ and Urban planner,
and if I might say something about

myself, I was just awarded the
Lifetime Achievement Award, which is

called the Kessler Achievement Award,
uh, by the Greater Dallas Planning

Council at an event, uh, last month.

I

Chris: didn't know that.

Chuck,

Chuck: I live in Kessler Park.

George Kessler was a landscape architect,
and I've, I was given award to, uh,

that was named after his achievement.

So yeah, Kessler Park has been a great
discovery for me that I made just,

uh, accidentally driving down Sylvan
Avenue in, in October of 1983 and

came upon, made a Yeah, right, right.

Made a right turn on Colorado Boulevard
and a left turn on Turner and there, then

we lived in turn on Turner for 13 years.

Chris: You just, so you
moved up from Houston?

Yeah.

And.

Yeah, you just found it.

Yeah.

Did you,

Chuck: you didn't know
anybody that lived here.

You were knew, knew no one, uh,
my, all my, because you're from,

well, I'm from Andrews, Texas.

Andrews, which is a little
oil town near Midland.

Odessa, yeah.

A hundred miles from Lubbock, Texas Tech.

And so, uh, yeah, all my friends
in the Dallas Fort Worth, uh,

architectural businesses, they
all lived in the M streets.

And they said, Hey, you've
gotta live in the M streets.

This is the happening place.

And so I got a realtor and we drove
around for a month looking at three

bedroom, one bath with dirt floors,
leaning to at 19 degrees for $400,000.

And I thought, oh my gosh.

You know, I couldn't afford that.

And so

Chris: back

Chuck: then, yeah, back then, it was 1983.

And I, anyway, make a long story.

Short, short.

I ended up on Turner Avenue.

I called the lady on the.

The sign who was a woman named Leanne Ine.

Uh, Leanne said, I only live a
few, no, LeeAnne Dyne and Leanne's

Chris: become one of
our really good friends.

And Leanne

Chuck: has sold me five houses in
cast park over the years and Wow.

And, uh, I called Leanne, she was
there with me 20 minutes later.

I walked in the house.

It was like the lady that was just
gone on vacation, uh, bought that

house that day and never looked back.

Really?

By the way, it was $86,000.

Chris: Yeah.

Oh yeah.

It was not for the 400
in back in the eighties.

No.

Uhuh and your house now on Timber Grove.

Yep.

Hold on.

We can say that.

But anyway.

Yeah.

Is, uh, it's a landscape
architect's house too.

'cause I love it.

'cause you got a really cool lot.

Yeah.

And that's, that's one of the cool things
about our neighborhood, I think too, is

that, I mean, there, there's plenty of,
you know, regular lots, but, uh, kind

of what I like, I mean, we we're just
gonna, we're we're going, we're going.

Okay.

Yeah.

Um, the landscape.

In our neighborhood.

It's not perfect.

Yeah.

I look around because I've looked at that
sometimes and driven around and gone.

Man, I mean, that is wild.

This this area right here, it, it's just
grown up and it's, it's real native.

It's not perfect, but I think
that's, well, you know, some of

the attraction I like about it.

Chuck: You're exactly right.

Uh, what I loved about it where the,
when I came into the neighborhood

that, that day was, that was the roll
of the hills, the cover of the trees,

kind of the organic quality of the
streets, you know, it just appealed

to my sense of aesthetic very heavily.

Although the neighborhood we live in
is a really difficult neighborhood

for landscapes, simply because
our, our soils are very shallow.

A lot of, a lot of caliche rock, which
lends to having a base kind of, uh,

alkaline condition of, of soil strata.

So.

You're out there struggling with your
gardens then I, I live by this philosophy.

You, you, you prepare a hundred dollars
hole for a $10 tree, meaning that you Oh.

Really need to improve your soil and make
sure that the, that the, uh, nutrient flow

to your plants is sufficient, you know?

Okay.

You know, and that's something
most people don't do.

Chris: There's, yeah.

I've got some questions here that I'm
gonna ask you, but we're gonna do this

and I, I like the way this is, is going
'cause that was one of the questions.

And since we're there, so

Chuck: do you throw people
out if it's not going well?

Chris: No, never.

It's always going well.

It's going great.

Just like, I just wanna let you know
I'm gonna go with the flow 'cause

there's, there's questions here, but
it, but you hit on the one that, that

was kind of one we wanted to, uh, talk
about was, I mean, you s W's no is a

global firm and does massive project.

Large, large projects, but, um.

For our, our homeowners, you know,
which we've got a lot of, you know,

homeowners are gonna be listening
to this or, and everybody's got

a house that they're interested.

Hey, what would a, um, you know,
professional landscape architect

gimme advice on, in the Dallas area?

'cause there's this building,
Dallas, you already mentioned it.

You know, there's a lot of
areas where we're low soil.

What's, what's some advice for
homeowners, for good landscaping?

Because I, I look at my house and I
go, well, I don't know what to do.

Put a bush.

You know, you put the bushes
up next to the house and

Chuck: put flowers in a garden.

I don't know.

Well, look, you know, I have found
that landscapes are like belly buttons.

Everybody's got one and
everyone is different.

Yeah.

And I say that kind of tongue.

Well, absolutely.

Tongue in cheek.

But, but it, it's a, it's a
true, it's a true statement.

Yeah.

Now the thing that, that I. Most people
don't understand about landscape is that

there's, uh, landscapes and feral animals
and birds and others are, are outside.

365 days unless you have an indoor animal.

I appreciate that.

But there's, I'm just saying that anything
that's living outdoors is subject to the

whims of Mother Earth and the weather.

Right.

The weather is extremely harsh on North
Texas plant material, so you have to take

an idea towards plant material that it's
not a one time, one and done situation.

It's a, it's a, it's a journey.

My landscape has looked fabulous.

For years.

And then, uh, through, you know, a
couple of years ago we got this storm,

uh, stormed or whatever we called it.

And it's had, I've had a hard time
getting it, getting it to come back.

And so I look at landscape as a
little bit like raising children.

You kind of do your best.

You give 'em nutrient, you
give it nutrients, uh, you take

care of 'em, you protect it.

But other influences are, are
affecting it every single day.

So for you to, to, uh, blame your
landscape issues on, uh, your landscape

architect or Home Depot or wherever
you buy the plants is, is not correct

because it's a, there's a human factor in
landscape architecture and landscapes, but

there's mother nature plants are the only
other things out in the sun living, uh,

that are subject to the whims of weather.

So be patient and experiment.

Chris: Well, and you know, Chuck, that.

For me personally, we've had some
high winds in the last few months.

I lost it.

It, the wind snapped a 45
foot tall cedar tree in half.

Mm-hmm.

So that's gone.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm looking out the window at an
80 foot tall, tall, you know, nine foot

around bur oak that sits right next to
my house that I saw move a little bit.

So I called jds tree service.

I said, we got, and I've been
knowing I gotta take it down.

So, I mean, I've got a hole
in the sky in my site that I,

at my house I've never had.

And it, you know what, now that
I think about it, it was a little

traumatic to cut that tree down.

Of course.

'cause it's, it's, it's
been there forever.

It's shaded my whole house,
but I mean, it's gone.

'cause it, it would've crushed my kitchen.

I'm in it.

It could have crushed me, but,
so I hear what you're saying.

You're, the landscape is really more
alive, alive than you think it is.

Yeah.

I mean, it's

Chuck: changing.

Well, and as you know, in this
neighborhood, a lot of the trees that

come down, people are surprised to
find that they're hollow inside, which

is the structural system of a tree.

We live with very shallow root
systems because of the caliche, uh,

underpinnings of our, of our soil.

And so, and then when things get
saturated and winds are good,

now people don't know that.

Or maybe they do, but they just don't.

But people should trim their trees 'cause
they become like a big sail on a sailboat.

The, the, the, the leaves and the
branches, they block the flow of air.

So, you know, have JD trim your trees
and architectural pruning mm-hmm.

You know, every five years to get
some of the mass out and you'll

give your tray much more stability.

Chris: Well, and I've noticed some
of the smaller trees and you know,

my yard, I got some big trees.

Start doing contortions
to, I guess, reach the

Chuck: sun.

They're following the sun.

Chris: Yeah.

'cause the bigger trees are, are shading

Chuck: them.

But Chris, speaking of taking
down trees, you have a, a

giant tree in your front yard.

That's a bit of a phallic symbol that you
need to take down the one on the street.

Oh my God.

Gosh.

Okay.

You need to take that down because it,
it, it, it looks like you're, like,

you're not taking care of your property.

Just the point of advice

Chris: here, here, just, just in
my, in my, in my defense, have you

ever seen, uh, the sculpture that
Charles Tandy did on his cedar tree?

Yeah.

Upon Allison.

That's what I keep going.

Okay.

Would I ever get somebody over here to
sculpt into that and make it a sculpture?

I probably won't.

Yeah.

I need to get rid of it.

It it, it, the other thing
you need to do, Chris, is

Chuck: you should not waste
any time planting another tree

where that bur oak was What?

Okay.

Put another burrow there.

What should I plant?

Put another bur oak there.

A barque.

It's a fabulous tree.

It loved that location.

It got to 80 feet.

Yeah.

It's an ideal location for a Bur oak.

And I've got, I think I got a couple
more Bur Oaks, but then I've got

a lot of pecans too between, well
this is the pecan pecans grow in

Bottomland and this is Bottomland
adjacent to the old Trinity River.

Okay.

So a pecan, two pecan burque.

I plant a bur oak before
I'd plant a pecan every day.

Really?

Yeah.

It's just a more
substantial, beautiful tree.

Chris: Okay.

In,

Chuck: in my opinion.

Got it,

Chris: got it.

Chuck: So, and, and, and besides
it's, it loved it there, so honor

it and put another one there.

Yeah.

Chris: I probably need
a couple along that.

Okay.

So Chuck, you've told us
you moved up from Houston.

You found the Oak cliff area.

You started with SW here.

What, um.

What are some of the, just let us
know, what are some of the projects

that you've worked on that we wouldn't
know that you worked on here in

Dallas or, or some of your favorites?

Chuck: Well, look, you know, in my,
in, in my career, in my young career,

I did a lot of, hold on one second.

Yeah, go ahead.

Chris: Thank you.

Chuck: You know, as a young landscape
architect, I came to the city of Dallas

that was, had a lot of really good
firms like OmniPlan and HKS and RTKL.

But what Dallas didn't have was really
a culture of landscape architecture.

Right.

Uh, most developers back in the sixties,
seventies, eighties, were the wealthy

set of Dallas and they owned ranches,
and when they needed trees, they'd go

out and get their gnarly trees from
their farms and plant 'em all over.

I mean, the anato in
Dallas is an example of.

Tramble crow planting trees from hi, from
his farms and, and those trees are most

of the time yellow when you look at 'em
because they're a strain between a red oak

and a bur oak, which is a disease tree.

And so, you know, the, it's not landscape.

Architecture's not as simple as just.

Uh, picking a, you know,
taking a tree from somewhere.

But anyway, that, that's, that's a, an
aside, but, you know, uh, but, you know,

uh, I was always involved in commercial
office buildings, uh, uh, community

design, uh, entries and edges as we say.

And, uh, I had, uh, worked on
the Four Seasons in Las Colinas.

And, uh, the very first project I worked
on coming out of Texas a and m in 1979

was our firm was working on a project
called William Square in Las Colinas.

And I was, I was a draftsman for a guy.

My, my mentor, Jim Reeves.

And so I worked on William Square
and it became this iconic, the

image of the city of Irving.

Yeah.

And so that was an early, uh, uh.

Introduction into real complex grading
and hardscape and you know that 300 by

300 square foot plaza with the river, the
abstracted river going through the bottom

of it was all of, all of our handy work.

But then, uh, so I worked on that and,
uh, we, our, our firm was hired to, to

redesign Market Street in the Dallas
West End, you know, and so what you

see at the Dallas West end with the
big arches and all of that stuff was

came, came out of the pens of SWA.

And so we had a a, a a.
Really, but that's hardscape.

Well that

is landscape architecture is.

Look, Chris, you know, I'm, no,
no, that's, no, I understand.

I'm really, I'm really not
surprised that as an architecture,

you're not informed very well.

But, but landscape architecture is
a, oh, there's a battle landscape

architecture is around you every
day, whether you know it or not.

Kessler was a landscape architect.

He laid out the streets in our
neighborhood, you know, uh, I designed,

uh, streets and freeways, alignments, and
all kinds of stuff in my career, right?

Uh, landscape architecture is really
everything outside the building

that, that you experience every
day from sidewalks to plazas to.

Curbs to textures and roads.

To roads, uh, and, and a
lot of interior design.

Like my, my, my good friend, deceased
friend, Judy Cunningham, was the

landscape is a landscape architect,
one of the founders of a, of a firm

in Dallas called Mesa Design, but
she was also the landscape architect

that did all those fabulous things
that we see in North Park Center.

Year after year after year, she traveled
the world procuring plants for North

Park and then came up with the designs.

She's a landscape architect
doing interior design.

Yeah.

So my point is no, and I wasn't

Chris: pushing back.

Yeah, no, I know.

I wanted people to know.

I mean, but here, when you see,
think of landscape architect, all

you think of is plants, but you

Chuck: know Chris there, but

Chris: there's a lot more

Chuck: there.

Well, that's right.

And, and, and actually Chris I'll
in a, in a moment of honesty, which

I always am, while I'm interested
in plants, plants are not my thing.

Plants are a tool, you
know, to, to create space.

And I know a lot about plants.

Yeah.

But solving.

Spatial problems and connectivity and
dealing with the inner, the leftover

space between, uh, between the world and
the world is really what I enjoy because

that's the space that's really troubled.

And so when I came to to, to Dallas and we
started meeting with the architects, uh,

the architectural set in Dallas in the, in
the, in the eighties were really skillful

architects, but they were really poor
site planners and poor, uh, uh, working

with other consultants 'cause architects,
even in school, and I say I I said that

to you tongue in cheek, but even in
school architects are, are dilettantish.

They think they are the one stop, uh,
uh, uh, people that know everything.

And landscape architects just by don't
know why we're, we're kind of seen

as being subservient, but that was
not the, the impression that that.

That I had my firm, by the way, SWA
is a, is a 68-year-old firm, started

by a guy named, had Sasaki and Peter
Walker, Sasaki Walker and Associates.

Hado is the dean of the Harvard
School of Design, and Walker

was a student of his and Walker.

Today's over 90 years old,
is is one of the preeminent

landscape architects in the world.

Wow.

Well, they started a firm called es,
uh, Sasaki Walker and Associates.

That lasted about three years.

And the reason they split up was that
Sasaki, even today out of Watertown,

Massachusetts is a multidisciplinary
firm with architects, landscape

architects, planners, uh, print
designers, soil scientists, graphic

designers, uh, interior designers.

They're a, they're a shop that
you can go and get all your site

planning and landscape architecture
and architecture needs met, whereas.

Peter Walker believed that iron sharpens
iron and that we ought to be seeking

out people to work with, which are
the best in their careers, so that

we were working with the top thinkers
and idea generators and, and thought

leaders in the the world of design.

So our firm is based upon being extremely
independent in our thinking, and so.

Back.

Now we're going back to 1983.

I'd be in these meetings.

I'd be trying to make these points to
these really senior architects from these

big firms, and they just would talk over
me and talk over me and talk over me.

And I went back to my office one day and
I said to Jim Rees, my mentor, I said,

Jim, those guys are a bunch of sobs and
I'm not gonna go back to those meetings.

They don't, they're arrogant, they
don't, they don't want any advice.

And Jim said, man, I get it,
Chuck, and you, you nailed it.

That's what they are.

But you know what, just keep
making your points and then

one day you'll, it'll change.

And so I did.

I went, made my points, got
talked over, got dismissed.

And one day, and one day, and
one day I was making a point

and nobody was talking.

And from then on, people in my
profession have, or or in the

architectural profession have listened
to me because I, I'm thoughtful.

I'm.

Smart about my subject, and
ultimately people are looking for

something that makes them successful.

And, you know, Chris, I have this,
my dad, my, my old sage dad from

Andrews, Texas said something to
me one time that was a real truism,

and I experienced it every day.

He said, Chuck, you're gonna find in
life that success has many fathers,

but failure is a bastard child.

Yeah.

No one wants it.

And so it's been my great joy to work
with architects from all over the world.

I'm, right now I'm working on the
renovation of the Dallas Museum of Art

with the architects, Nito Sono from, from,
uh, Madrid, Madrid, Spain, you know, and

I, I'm one of the, I'm a, a consultant, a
designer that loves to listen, interpret,

and then I really solve problems that.

Solve the problem, but they satisfy
me deeply, both visually, emotionally,

structurally, uh, they satisfy me.

And then all of a sudden, everybody
loves, loves the project and

everybody's responsible for the project.

So success has many fathers, you see.

And so that's the objective.

I

Chris: I, I like that Chuck.

'cause you're, uh, if you didn't like
the design, then how good would it be?

Because you, you're designing
it and you're, you're picturing

yourself, you know, at these places.

You know, you're a person
like everybody else.

Hey, if I'm not enjoying it and you know
what to look for, it's kind of like me

with the boys and doing all this film
stuff, it's hard for me sometimes to watch

films now and not see behind the camera.

Yeah.

See, you're seeing things
in the landscape that.

W if you're not trained to see
it, you don't, you don't see it.

You might experience it, you
might go, Hey, this space makes

me feel, but you don't know why.

So let, let me premise that, uh, with,
with this question is 'cause 'cause

I think what you've hit on is really
interesting on, uh, not only just

you, but if, but if you can broaden
it a little bit to, you've explained

how Dallas was probably architect
driven without as much thought, uh,

being specifically trained with
landscape architecture in, in

the Dallas, you know, uh, really
growing period, eighties and and on.

What have, what have you seen that's been
good that you've had an influence on?

And maybe some of these other
guys you're talking about had

an influence on, on Dallas.

On bringing our parks, our
exterior living area up, or, or

Chuck: where, where do you see it?

Well, Chris, I have a, a really,
uh, interesting answer for that,

and I'm gonna tell it as a third
party sometime in the eighties.

I forget when it was.

Um, I know I just can't, it's
not coming to me right now.

But Boeing Corporation was looking to
move their corporate headquarters from

Seattle, Washington, and cities all
over the United States were pulling

out the red carpet, including Dallas.

And it came down to two, two finalists.

Uh, Dallas, Texas and Chicago, Illinois.

And Chicago was awarded.

Boeing's corporate headquarters
where all their executives would,

would meet and, and would office.

And in the debriefing, uh, the
Boeing executive says, you know what,

Dallas is a really appealing city.

It's got great highways.

You've got DFW airport,
you got love field.

You got big roads.

You got a great transportation system.

But we don't think it's a,
an actual, very livable city.

In other words, uh, it's cold, it's harsh.

It's not a walkable city.

It's not a city where people, uh,
can enjoy being outdoors, you know?

And, uh, we, our, our, our
staff, our employees, they,

they wanna live close to work.

They wanna walk, they wanna be
engaged in parks and in nature.

Well, uh.

That was just kind of a, a wake
up call for the city of Dallas.

Yeah.

And, and, uh, a gentleman named Robert
Deckard, who was on that committee

that was speaking to Boeing and
others, uh, started saying, yeah,

boy, that, that just sounds so true.

We're not a very green city.

We're not a very appealing city, and
people don't live in our urban core.

They, they leave.

And so they went down and said to the city
parks department and said, we'd like to

see the, the Dallas Parks Master plan.

And they said, we don't have one

After George Kessler and all of his
impact, there was not a master plan

for, for parks in the city of downtown
or, or in the city of Dallas, and

specifically for downtown Dallas.

So, wow.

So Robert Deckard went about commissioning
a study that he paid for that to set the

Dallas, uh, greenscape plan, uh, and,
uh, hired a firm, uh, called Hargraves

Jones, and they did a master plan, which
identified park opportunities, including

four signature parks for downtown Dallas.

And this is a very long story,
so I'm just gonna abbreviate it.

No.

To make, to make a long story
short, Robert Deckard and

the Belo Corporation, uh.

This who had been longtime sponsors of the
journalism department at the University

of Texas, Austin, uh, because they own
the Dallas Morning News and, you know,

the Be low family and all of that.

They, they, uh, developed an
organization called Parks for Downtown

Dallas and they commissioned a master
plan for, for park systems and, and

turning Dallas into a walkable city.

Right.

And so other master plans over the
years were developed and other long-term

vision plans for the city of Dallas
were, were, were developed, but

Robert Deckards Parks downtown Dallas
identified four locations for what would

be called Dallas's signature Parks.

There were four parks and then the
Deckard family set, set up parks

downtown Dallas and started fundraising
the, and, and started philanthropy.

And, uh, make a long story short,
the Deckard family of the, uh,

like I was commissioned to do the
very first of the four signature

parks, they're all built now.

And which one is that?

One?

Pacific Plaza.

Okay.

Which is, uh, at, at North St. Paul
Akron and, uh, live Oak Street downtown,

which for all my years and my 30 plus
years of living in Dallas, at the

time it was a 600 car parking lot.

And now it's a Verdant Green
Park in downtown Dallas.

And then we have Carpenter Park, uh, which
is a park SWA had done for the carpenter

family in, in the, in the early eighties.

Where, where's Carpenter Park?

Carpenter Park is that park that's kind
of up under the freeway, uh, on the, uh,

3 45 extension around the, around the
east end of downtown, underneath there.

It's got that big long
slice sculpture in it.

Got it.

Uh, and then, yeah, and then there's
two other, uh, there's the West End,

west End Park, uh, and then there's
another park, which is escaping me.

But anyway, it, it added in four years,
17.3 acres of downtown Urban Park.

And when we started.

These parks, there was about
1500 residents in, down in the

Urban Corps of downtown Dallas.

Yeah.

Now there's over 15,000.

Yes.

Right.

And Dallas is, is, is
known as a walkable city.

We're now in the metrics nationally
of, of parks with urban, with green

urban corridors and the trust Republic
land has a of a, is an, has an

initiative of the five minute walk.

You know, from that you should be able
to walk in any direction from your

home to some type of a green space.

And so.

There's that, but then there was this
other thing that I was doing and, and 27

years ago we got invited to interview for
this little thing called the Katy Trail.

And I went to the interview
that day going, why are

we here?

This is just like a little concrete

path down a railroad.

Yeah, it's a

sidewalk.

We were gonna do a five mile

Chris: sidewalk

Chuck: and, and we were awarded the job.

And then I met this guy
named Philip Henderson.

And Philip Henderson was the Henderson
of an institutional architectural firm

in Dallas called Pratt Box Henderson.

And Philip was a man of nature
and he was the then president of

the Friends of the Katy Trail.

So they hired us and let me just
say, because I could talk for

five hours about the Katy Trail.

Yeah.

I worked on the Katy Trail
continuously for 27 years.

Uh, and it has begin.

It has been that little sidewalk project
that keeps giving and keeps giving.

And in the last 25 years,
there's been, uh, over.

Yeah.

Approaching $3 billion of construction
along within a quarter mile of the, of

the 3.5 miles of the Katy Trail corridor.

Wow.

And, and, and, uh, you know, an investment
next to a park can is anywhere from

15 to one return to 70 to one return.

So everything, back in the day when,
when we would go and, and try to market

the, the Katy Trail, Dallas's, wealthiest
families, just say, that's a little early.

That's a little sketchy over there.

'cause it was, it was a drug corridor,
it was dark, it was dingy, and now

it's everything at the Katy Trail.

Right.

The one mistake that I made was not
advising the friends of the Katy

Trail to, to copyright the name Katy
Trail, because now everybody borrows

the name of the Katy Trail, you
know, in their, in their marketing.

But, and in my firm, S Wba A is a
firm of, of a little over 300 people.

We're the largest pure landscape
architectural firm in the world.

There are.

Firms that have bigger landscape
architectural divisions, but they're

multidisciplinary firms like Sasaki
or like Kimley Horn engineers,

but as pure landscape architects.

And you remember what I told you about
why we're pure landscape architects?

'cause we wanna work with the best.

Yeah.

We don't want anybody kind of
telling us how the corn's gonna grow.

Yeah.

We want to contribute
to the farm, you know?

So, okay,

Chris: I got on the Katy Trail.

What, because I've heard this and,
and, and, um, you know, that it

was rough and drugs and stuff.

What, what, what, what did you do?

What, what, what physically kind
of you think, Hey, this helped

more lighting, cut some stuff down.

Chuck: What?

Just, well, it's all of the above, Chris,
but the, but there was a strategy about

it that, uh, what people were saying is
we were trying to raise money was true.

So as we were designing the project,
we decided, we decided to do.

The first project was gonna be at the
Knox Henderson intersection where?

On Knox Street, where the Katy Trail
crosses over into Highland Park.

And the reason we did it there was because
people could go slow and they could look

to their right and look to the left.

And as far as they could see, it had been
cleaned up and there was new plantings.

The trees canopies were cleared out.

We made it visual.

So people, they ventured a quarter
of a mile and turned around.

Right.

And they, and we just
fed it to 'em in pieces.

Right.

Yeah.

And we did the same thing coming
from, from American Airlines arena.

Chris: They could tell somebody
was carrying, was coming

Chuck: and there was lighting and there
was, there was uh, uh, it had been cleaned

up and all the nasty stuff was, was gone.

Yeah.

And people start walking and.

This year.

I love to tell this metric because
Clyde Warren is an important park.

It really validated that, that, uh,
parks can, can be important economically

and, and socially to, to Dallas.

But Clyde Warren Park had a little
over a million visitors this year.

1.3, 1.4 is that in Katy Incredible.

A park over a freeway.

But the Katy Trail this year had
over 3 million visitors, twice

as many as Clyde Warren Park.

I have shown, and my partnership
have shown the Katy Trail

over the entire world.

Everybody in the world
knows the Katy Trail ever.

And, and it is really
Dallas's Central Park.

It is when you look at it, you know?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

And so, uh, I'm, I'm very proud
of that, you know, and the city of

Dallas, uh, uh, uh, uh, could do a
better job of being good to that.

Friends of the Katy Trail, meaning
they should spend more money.

They don't spend a lot of money.

The Katy Trail operates on
donations and philanthropy, and

we've done some wonderful things.

But that project, and that
project, I've met some of the most

interesting people who were donors,
who I've become their friends.

You know, I've got all kinds of stories
about how something I did in Mexico

where someone lives, they wanted to
donate something to the Katy Trail.

They didn't know me, but they, they went
to the Katy Trail and said, we have a

home in this really nice place in Mexico.

It was done by a Dallas landscape
architect, Chuck McDaniel.

And the, and the Katy Trail said,
well, he happens to be our master

planner, landscape architect.

I meet those people and they
spend $5 million on a, on a,

on one of the plazas there.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it's just those little six
degrees of separation, which I

have been open to my entire life.

I'm kind of keen to the,
to people around me.

Okay.

Chris: So I'm gonna pivot right to today.

On that note, because you
mentioned Clyde Warren, um, which

is a park over a freeway right.

On the north side of downtown
Dallas, and then now you are involved

in the Southern Clyde Warren.

What's it, what's, what's
the Southern park called?

I,

Chuck: I should stand up and
walk walkout for you making

that reference, but I won't.

But anyway, I'm, I'm the landscape
architect, designer of the Southern

Gateway or what's called Southern
Gateway today, Halperin Park.

And that is a, uh, a park of the
similar size to Clyde Warren, uh, that

is stretching from the Dallas Zoo.

Uh, over to, uh, Oak Cliff.

Right?

And that project is about phase one of the
project is about, uh, 60% completed today.

You're gonna open at the end of this year.

They think they'll be through
by Thanksgiving of this year.

Fabulous part.

Wow.

That is kind of reconnecting,
uh, the neighborhoods.

And in fact, I'm, I'm gonna be in New York
on the 25th of, of this month presenting

to the, uh, New York Architectural League.

They want to know about cap parks,
and it's not the big about what?

Cap caps over the top of a freeway.

Oh, that's what they call 'em.

Cap.

That's what they call.

Okay.

And, uh, they're not just
interested in the methodology and

the engineering and the design.

They're interested in social equity and
social justice and, you know, how are

green spaces equitable to all people?

Chris: Okay.

So,

Chuck: so

Chris: on um, on the, okay.

These two parks.

Similar in that they're caps, right?

Way different in population location.

Clyde Warren being highly populated,
very dense with office, and now

the Southern Gateway Park really
is an emerging neighborhood.

What, what's the difference in thought
on those those Look the, I think

Chuck: the motivations were
different between Clyde Warren

Park and, uh, the Southern Gateway.

Look.

Yeah.

Purpose wise, the, the, the
motivation behind Clyde Warren

Park was that, was that.

The city of Dallas didn't have much, much
more room to expand and the, the buildings

that were happening be beginning to happen
along McKinney Avenue and up and down

and across the freeway were isolated.

It was a, it was a really nasty
experience to walk once again walkability.

Mm-hmm.

Across the, the, the trench, which
was the Walton Walker Freeway.

Yeah.

Right.

Or Woodall Rogers Freeway.

And so there was motivation behind
investors and people who own the buildings

on each side to kind of connect this
thing, knowing that it was going to

drive up the value of their properties.

And that's great.

Whatever the motivation is.

Dallas got a green space and
it's a destination green space.

People come from all over the, uh, the
Metroplex and Oklahoma, Southern Oklahoma

to experience and have a day in the park.

So it's fabulous in that regard.

The difference is is that the,
the Southern Gateway Park, you

called it a new neighborhood.

It's an, it's an old neighborhood.

It was old, but it's emerging.

It's changing it.

It's emerging.

Well, it was, it was a, a viable
neighborhood until the sixties,

whenever the, the US freeway expansion,
bifurcated Oak Cliff, and, yep,

by, by virtue the, the, the, what
I call the, the, the west side.

Some call it the south side,
but the west side was connected

to the Jefferson District.

So there was doctors and libraries and
hospitals and retail and restaurants on

that side, the southern side, the, the,
the, the east side or the north side.

The Dow Zoo wasn't even
there at that time.

Yeah.

And so it was cut off by, from all
the neighborhood services and it

became, it didn't, it did not, uh,
do as well as, as the west side.

And so.

The Southern Gateway is a tangible,
uh, uh, uh, replacement of land,

which will stitch the neighborhood,
the walkability of the neighborhood.

We have a, we have a, a, a, a sidewalk,
a promenade that runs through the

middle of our park, the Southern Gateway
called the 12th Street Promenade.

12th Street used to be an important
street that went from, from.

Uh, uh, from the neighborhoods, uh, uh,
of, uh, of Nette Knights Of that district.

Yeah.

Over the, uh, into the Jefferson
Davis kind of retail experience.

'cause you know, Oak Cliff
used to be its own city.

Yeah.

And this was downtown Oak Cliff.

Right.

And so we're kind of connecting
this with this four acre park.

We're kinda reconnecting, you know, when
we were doing all the public outreach,

which happened all during COVID, you
know, we had, uh, four or five, uh,

online meetings that were bilingual.

Uh, and we had hundreds of participants,
uh, that the, the one request, well

there was two primary requests.

They said, we want a park that is
equal to or better than Clyde Warren

Park, but we don't want Clyde Warren.

And, uh, we want something that's
a reflection of who we are as

a, a neighborhood and as a, a
really unique part of Dallas.

So my, my solution for the park is
full of, of, of images and, and icons

of, of the Oak Cliff neighborhood.

The other thing that happened, we
didn't get any questions about,

about the changing economics that
happen around these green spaces.

Right.

You know, like you've seen
the Katy Trail went from.

Nobody likes it to over $3
billion in construction value.

Oh, yeah.

Right.

Oh yeah.

I'm afraid that will begin to
happen around, around parks because

park generate walkability and
public access and improvement.

Right.

But no, none of the constituents, the
neighbors that came from, the neighbor

that were called in on these calls.

They didn't mention, uh,
gentrification or they said, we're

so proud that we get new land.

That's land for all that.

We all have an equal own
ownership, uh, Hispanic, African

American, Asian, uh, Caucasian.

It's, it's a clean, wonderful
new start for our community.

Yeah.

And so, uh, to me that's really
the, the point is that people want

safe places to raise their children.

They want to commune with nature.

They want to kind of leave their
neighborhood and go to something

that is connected to their
neighborhood, that is walkable and

that is, uh, uh, equitable for them.

Everyone says this, they did
this for me and my family.

Yeah,

yeah.

You know, and I think that's
the difference between.

The cat parks in Dallas.

Yeah.

And, and that the one was a,
uh, an initiative, uh, to help

foster, uh, economic and developer.

And one was an initiative to
stitch a community back together.

Chris: Yeah.

And when you mention the, uh, the
freeway, it's amazing to think what

it, it's just a freeway, but that
really is, that is a huge divider.

Absolutely.

And this park is, is I, I I'm seeing
what, what I think you've been living

as a landscape architect is really,
it's, um, it's bringing people

together and you think of bringing
people together in a building, but.

When you, when people go to lunch or they
wanna relax, they go, they go outside.

We get plenty of good weather,
you know, it gets hot, you

know, in the, in the summertime.

But it, landscape architecture seems
like it really is about connecting,

maybe even not just people connecting
the buildings, connecting the,

the built environment together.

Um.

Speak on that

Chuck: a little bit.

Like when you, by the way, Chris,
I take my previous comments back.

You are an informed architect.

You, you, you, you, you've learned
just during this conversation,

you've learned Oh yeah.

I appreciate that.

I'm trying,

Chris: I'm trying to get there.

Chuck: No, Chris, look, I, I
love my architecture clients.

I love our neighborhood.

Uh, I love that my career has been able
to influence the way people live in

our neighborhoods and in our country.

How people vacation, what they enjoy,
and that my, that in, in my own little

way, my firm, SWA and all of our
employees, you know, we're trying to.

Help make this world sustainable.

It's getting hotter, it's getting more
rain, more floods, more natural events,

you know, and so landscape architecture's
least is, is about, you know, we're trying

to use a low emission, uh, concretes
and we're trying to use things that,

that, uh, reduce the heat gain we're
trying to use, uh, uh, water responsibly.

We're trying to, uh, plant that,
that that works on, uh, sequestering

carbon, you know, all that type of
thing is something that's in our gene

pool that we think about constantly.

It's not about just about making something
pretty and something that people like.

It's about doing something
that is sustainable and that

is good for our, our world.

You know, that I, I'm

Chris: glad you hit that point
because um, 'cause we do get.

Harsh, harsh summers.

Absolutely.

I mean, you know, I, I like to, I, I
like warm weather and I'm, I'm a southern

boy, but, uh, even the older I get,
the older we get, man, that summertime

really gets hot and, you know, but,
but we've got spring and fall or falls.

I love.

Um, and you're talking about materials.

Um, what's, what's an interesting thing
maybe that's new about materials that you

guys are using or that are being produced,
and then, and then along with that, what's

a material that you use that you just
love, it's one of your favorite, or you.

Chuck: You really love it and, and why?

Well, let me speak to one
of the materials that I use.

Project.

Every project has, uh, a budget.

And you go to a lot of projects.

Like did you have to live by?

Absolutely.

Chris: In architecture school, the guys

Chuck: that did the best designs
didn't have to live by now.

Chris: Their

Chuck: budget, everybody
has a budget, but.

Like I have learned how
to perfect concrete.

I love concrete.

And so there are methodologies today
by color additives with techniques

to change the finish the surface of
concrete, uh, like Pacific Plaza and the

Southern Gateway and the Four Seasons.

And a, a lot of my, my big projects
use concrete because it's a cost

effective way to have a pavement
that can be really decorative.

So it's not just a gray
concrete with a broom finish.

You take concrete, you put a color
additive in it to make it lighter

or beige or blacker or greener
or redder, whatever you want.

And then there are, there are some
organic chemicals, like a chemical that

I love that's called Top cast, which is
a, an organic spray on chemical that.

That is a retarding agent, which
actually slows down the drying process

and prevents the top of the concrete
slurry from hardening as fast as it

would if it were just not treated.

And then you, after a certain
amount of time, you can come and

wash the concrete off, right?

Just with a, with a, with a, a water hose.

And depending on how long you've left
that retardant on there, you get the,

you start to expose the aggregates in
the concrete mix, uh, to some levels.

And I, I, I, I always, to my
older clients, at least I say,

you know, those sidewalks in your
neighborhood that used to walk down?

And you'd look down, you could see
all the little fine pebbles, the

little black pebbles and the green
pebbles and the white pebbles,

you know, and it looked worn.

Well, that's the, the idea.

And then I like to saw cut using a three
16th blade down an inch and a half to

cut concrete into certain patterns.

And if you walked up on it, you would
think that, oh, that's limestone.

They used limestone on that,
or they used granite on that.

Yeah, because it's the, the technology is
there to let you take this base material

and uh, use it in highly decorative ways.

And so that saves and stay in your budget.

That saves a good portion of the budget,
which we get to spend on other things.

You go to Clyde Warren Park, and every
surface over there is a concrete sub-base.

With a paver on top of it.

Right.

So it's, it's thicker than it has, it's
harder than it has, it has more embedded

carbon in it that it needs to have.

'cause both those two materials,
I have one material, I use pavers.

There's pavers in, in Pacific Plaza, I
mean, in, uh, in the Southern Gateway

because of our, our 12th Street Promenade.

I'm happy to tell you this little
story about the 12th Street Promenade.

We're gonna use pavers there, but
most projects have like bricks,

naming bricks, that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Which I'm not a big fan of.

Right.

I appreciate people giving their
$5, $20, $50 contributions.

What I wanted to do is, you know,
there's a, a long, long list of world

changing people that were born and
raised and educated in Oak Cliff.

You know, we all think of Stevie
Ray Vaughn, you know, he's, he's the

easiest one, but there's hundreds
of doctors, lawyers, professors.

Mm-hmm.

Teachers, librarians, architects,
landscape architects, pastors, uh,

shop owners, all kinds of people that
are the finest that of, of, that have

made medical history, that have made
architectural history, that have made

astronauts, you know, all kinds of people
that were born and raised in Oak Cliff.

And so we're gonna have an annual,
uh, uh, nomination process.

You have to, I think you
have to be 70 years old.

You have to not be, uh, active
in political government.

Uh, and there's gonna be a, a, a
nomination and up to five people

a year are gonna have their
names placed in this 12th Street

Promenade, the fines to vote Cliff.

And then when you get your name in
there, a bronze, a linear bronze

plaque with your name on it,
and there's gonna be a QR code.

And so when you flash the QR code,
it'll bring up Steve Ray Bond,

born on 10th Street and Oak Cliff
went to Sunset High School, blah,

blah, and tell you all about.

All about him and, and
these other I love that.

Fascinating people.

I, 'cause then you get to Yeah.

It's kinda like a history book.

It's a, it's a living, growing thing.

Yeah.

Instead of a one time, you know,
you get your name on a brick,

you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

There's gonna be a wall for
donors that will dedicate that.

But my, but my point is, is I don't
even remember what my point was,

but my point was is that these
materials and things were, uh, the ev

everything you do means something to
the, to the warming earth these days.

Yeah.

Right.

And concrete, which is America's
the world's number one building

material is the slowest off-gassing,
uh, material in the world, which is

adding to the warming of the world.

So we, there's great research and
there's low carbon con, uh, concrete

that we're beginning to use.

And there's all kinds of
materials that are working.

And landscape architects, uh, are at the
forefront of research and development for.

Doing projects that, and doing products
that improve the, the constructability

and, uh, uh, sustainability of our earth.

Chris: I mean, I think that's
very interesting because people

think of concrete concrete's,
concrete, just it's concrete.

Yeah.

No, it's, there's all
kinds of ways to do it.

Chuck: There's great things
happening in wood that is not treks.

There's, they're taking pine wood
now and they're embedding it with

embalming it with chemicals now
that, that make it much more durable,

much harder, much more sustainable.

So there's a lot of research that
landscape architecture at the

forefront of for, for helping us.

Okay.

Chris: Couple of questions here.

Um, is there, and, and so everybody
know Chuck's getting ready to retire,

uh, but is there a, is there a project
that you would still like to do or that.

It has never presented itself
or an idea, you think, gosh, I

I wish somebody would do this.

Project, some, something in Dallas
that you go, I wish I could do that.

Well, or,

Chuck: or one that you've done
that you go, I love that one.

Those are two, two separate questions.

Yeah.

Two separate.

One, one project I wish the
city of Dallas could do.

I don't, I personally don't believe
it'll ever happen and I wish the

Trinity trust the best of luck.

And that is, uh, doing something with
the Trinity, uh, corridor, right?

My firm did.

Uh, what city

Chris: has that much land
going through the middle of it?

It didn't done anything with it.

Chuck: Well, Houston had that much
land and hadn't done anything with it.

And my, one of my partners, a guy
named Kevin Shanley, took an interest

in the Buffalo Bayou and now the
Buffalo Bayou in Houston is a, is a

world example of sustainable nature.

Flood control the city.

So they're doing stuff with it.

Yeah.

And, and, and the city and, and
landscape architects like Michael

VanValkenberg and Sasaki and Associates
and others that have come to Dallas

have tried to develop those plans.

But.

They're into a big, strong headwind
in that the world weather is

changing, events are getting stronger.

Floods are, we have to
protect people from floods.

So anytime when you go down into a
floodway like the Trinity Floodway

and you start to, uh, to sculpt
earth and build lakes, you have to

account for displacing the flood.

And so what do you do?

You get the levees go higher.

And so it's, and the Corps of
Engineers are clearly the most

powerful organization in America.

And the fact that they're, they're,
they're objective and they're, and

they're, and thank God for them because
they're, they're here to save our

cities so that we don't flood and lose
our homes and lose our infrastructure.

But I wish that, that, that, uh, the state
government and our local philanthropic

community, which is wonderful and put
a lot of money into the Trinity Yeah.

Plan, right?

And it's going to be something,
but I'm not sure it'll ever be.

An amenity in unto itself, it's going
to be, have amenities attached to it.

So I wish Dallas could really
have, listen, it, it's been

my experience, Chris, and my
extensive travels across the world.

Water is always associated
with world class cities.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

It just, it's just the way it is.

Mm-hmm.

In, in, in the world.

And, and we had water, but, you
know, flood and developers and,

and all of that, uh, uh, uh.

Uh, anyway, we, we just haven't had the,
I think we're behind the curve on that.

I hope that one day, the, that the
landscape architects, engineers

that are working on the Trinity
Corridor will, will crack the nut

and that we will have something.

But on the other hand,
that would be incredible.

But on the other hand,
there are fabulous parks.

Big plan to that are gonna
connect to that corridor.

And then you, you, you link that with.

The, the circuit Trail, which
is a 50 mile circuit, which

I've done a good piece of it.

That's 50 50 mile bike.

What was that?

It's a 50 mile bike path that goes around,
uh, the city of Dallas and Dallas County

and will connect out to this greater
national thing called the Velo Web, which

is a connection of bike and hike trails
that crisscrosses the United States

through rail corridors and pipeline
corridors and electrical corridors.

And it's a network?

No, this is an

Chris: ongoing, it's an

Chuck: ongoing thing, but in Dallas,
a group of people called the, uh, the,

the, uh, the circuit trail, the loop, uh,
have created a 50 mile loop and I think

they've got like 44 miles of it built.

I did the piece down Highline through the
design district, and it's connects to the

Katy Trail, which connects to the Trinity
Strand Trail, which connects to the, oh,

Chris: so it's not outside

Chuck: of Dallas, it's
going through Dallas.

It, it's in and around and weaving
its way through through Dallas.

But that.

The parks that are being planned along
the trinity, which are right over

here that we see in our backyard now
being, you see evidence that they're

beginning to take, take things down.

Yeah.

What's the one

Chris: over there off of Commerce?

Chuck: Commerce, yeah.

Just

Chris: right up here.

Chuck: That's all gonna connect to
other trail system, which you're

making Dallas linkable and walkable
and bikeable across our city.

That's when we get known as a green
city, when we get known as a, a

walkable and a rideable, uh, a city.

And that's what world class cities have.

Yeah.

So we have to do, have extraordinary
parks because we may not ever

have extraordinary water.

Right.

You know, and

Chris: Well, that's always
been the thing about Dallas.

Why is it here?

There's nothing here.

There's no mountains,
there's no, there's no.

Natural beauty and say that now come right
straight home to that's what you're doing.

Chuck: Well, there is natural beauty.

We, we live in Kessler Park, which
is a part of Dallas's Natural Beauty.

Yeah.

And then they create the lakes like
White rock lake, which that becomes

beauty and that kind of stuff.

But to nothing, to your point,
Chris magnificent, you're, but

people are, people are interested
in, in being, being in nature.

And I think Dallas is really doing
an excellent job through the trinity,

through the parks downtown Dallas,
through the Trinity Strand, through all

the organizations that want to create
connectivity in walkability in our city.

Yeah.

Chris: Okay, Chuck, and I know you
wanted to talk about this right at

the very first, um, but since you're
retiring soon, you've got a 44 decades

of wisdom in, in your profession.

What.

Would you say to, so we're gonna limit
the audience to the, the young people who

are coming up in landscape architecture,
in architecture, in building, you

know, because you really, you, you
haven't just worked with architecture.

You're, you're working with the
land owner, the building owners,

the developers, the realtors, the
cities, everybody who's in the city

plant, the cities, the government.

Um, what, what is your advice to the
young landscape architects for the future?

Chuck: Well, you know,
look, I'm an old dog.

When I retire at the end of June, I
will have, Chuck still uses a pencil.

Yeah.

I, and

he's

Chris: still, he's still, oh, I should,
hold on, I'm gonna hold on this.

He still sketches on napkins.

If you go to his Instagram page.

You're gonna see all these,
it's you're gonna go, what?

What is he?

What is he doing?

He's got these all intricate little things
are, they're not always on a napkin, but a

Chuck: lot of 'em.

Yeah.

Chris: Aren't they?

They

Chuck: started on long haul
flights on American Airlines.

Oh my gosh.

Out of tedium before movies.

I hate, hate to do this, but

Chris: this is that.

This is that personal part of the
interview at Chuck, I think at your house.

He's got some napkins framed on
his wall that he's done probably.

Probably ink on a napkin, right?

Yeah, yeah.

You can't, it's hard to do a pencil.

Okay.

Just, and then we'll get back to
the, to the Young Am architects.

How in the world did you get started
doing all those little detail drawings?

Chuck: Well, you know, it, it
literally, I have drawn my entire,

entire doodler in my entire life.

And, and, uh, I am, I'm a doodler,
you know, uh, in my many, many, many

years, my four decades of flying
across the world, you know, we didn't

have movies and, you know, you, yeah.

You can only look at American
Airlines magazine so many times.

And one night I was just sitting on a
plane and, uh, I, I, I, I actually think

it started, I was leaving, uh, the Tur
Caicos Islands one day, and I looked

out the window and of course I had a,
a drink on my, my stand and a napkin.

And I looked down outta the
window and I saw a regatta.

You know, boats were attacking in the Bay,

Chris: Uhhuh,

Chuck: and there were
all these little tales.

Behind them of the frothing of the water.

And I kind of sat there and I
just kind of drew what I was

seeing in a very abstracted way.

Right.

And so I, I put my little name
on it and I dated it, and it's

hanging in my office today.

Oh my God.

But it started this interest
and kind of drawing, looking

out the window for a moment.

Like I flew over Barstow, California
one time and there was this interesting

scene where this mountain, kind
of this mountain came down to a

river, to a farm field, to a city.

And that's a napkin hanging in my office.

Yeah.

You know?

And so then Wow.

Chris: They're, they're from a,

Chuck: yeah, they started this 35,000
feet, but then I started doing just

abstract and sketching, and most of them
are really, have no plan of anything.

And I, and, and listen, I'm,
I'm 68 years old and for the

last 40 plus years, I draw.

Every day, even if I don't draw
at my office, 'cause I've been in

meetings or something, I'll come
home and sit down and Marcy and I are

starting our evening and I pick up my
sketchbook and I open it and I start.

Tracing, you know, how
fun and start drawing.

And so I've got just thousands of
images of, they're just doodles.

Just mindless doodles.

Yeah.

But they're, they're really an art form.

They're very interesting
as far as I'm concerned.

They're, they're an art form.

Uh, Chuck McDaniel 24
20 is my Instagram side.

If you wanted this.

There you go to see 'em.

Yeah.

They're, and, and, and I don't post
quite as much as I used to, but

anyway, uh, they're very interesting
and, and what they do, they're part

of, you know, like a weightlifter.

Arnold Schwartzenegger
lifted weights every day.

So when it came time to go
and perform, he was pumped up,

you know, a baseball player.

Works on his curve ball all the time.

I draw because it keeps my hand
and eye coordination instantaneous.

You know, one of my things I like to
do is I go to these meetings and we're

about to start this, this waterfront
project in Jacksonville, Florida.

And, and there's big plans laying
on the table and the, and the client

says, well, let's all start, let's
all start talking and drawing.

And so the architects pull up their
computers and they're logging in.

You got a passcode,
all that kind of stuff.

I've already rolled out my trace and
I got my pencils and I'm drawing,

forming shape and talking about
connections and for long, the, the,

the all eyes are on the drawing.

Right.

And so, but I can do that because
I don't have to warm up because my

hand eye coordination is fabulous.

I, yeah,

Chris: I'm an old guy too, and
there's just something so rich about.

The hand drawn stuff.

I dunno if that, it's never gonna go away.

Yeah.

And oh, but while you're getting a swig,
the stuff that I see Bryce do, that he

can walk someone through his design.

Yeah.

Because it's on a computer.

Right.

Hey, as far as communicating
the design, oh my gosh,

Chuck: that

Chris: is, is incredible.

Each, we had it

Chuck: generation, each
generation learns their tool.

Right?

Yeah.

I'm a tactile visual guy and.

There's this one, one funny
thing about me, Chris, in that

things that don't interest me, I
don't give a second thought, and

computers have never interested me.

Uh, my staff, they work, they take
my tracings and they digitize 'em.

They turn 'em into CAD drawings
and we turn 'em into, you

know, all this kind of stuff.

So that's important, but
I'm the idea generator.

I'm the marketer, I'm
the principal in charge.

I'm the idea generator.

And so the best thing I can
do, and I like to see the whole

field, you know, a project is not
the size of a computer screen.

And if you put a, a multi acre project
on an eight and a half by 11 computer

screen, the image is this big.

I need to work big so I can,
because everything's connected.

You don't just work in
a series of screenshots.

And somehow it has continuity.

At least I'm not able to do that.

Bryce and this young generation
might be able to do that.

But I'm telling you, there's something
about drawing in front of other people.

It's almost like I'm a magician
and I, they're seeing magic tricks

and everybody loves magic tricks.

You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

And all of a sudden they, they
see, and I say, that's a sidewalk

and that's a grove of trees.

And, you know, this is an amphitheater
and, you know, that kind of stuff.

It's, it's just something that
is, is mesmerizing to people.

And I do it very well, and I, it's
just something I've done my entire

life and something that I really love.

I have a lot of passions, but one
of my top three passions is drawing.

Every single day I can tell,
you know, I look how to, how to

become a drawer, start drawing.

Yeah.

You know, people are intimidated
by things they can't do.

You know what drawing is also like
my sketchbooks are very private.

Yeah.

People only see what's in them when I
open them and let them see, you know,

Hey, musicians don't practice in front
of every That's right, everybody.

That's right.

So, here what I'm saying, go
to, go to Michael's MJ design.

Go to their sketchbook department.

They've got, you can buy a sketchbook for
$5, uh, eight and a half by 11, 11 by 17.

Find yourself a pen or a pencil
that you like the feeling of

it, and just start drawing.

Just, just put the pen down on the paper
and scroll it around very organically.

Write your name in some beautiful way, you
know, and if, if someone walks into the

room, you lift the pen and shut the book.

Right?

Sure.

And then day two you go, God,
I like what I did yesterday.

I like, Chuck, you're good.

And then you go a little bit more,
but you, it's like everything else.

It's like I tell my landscape,
young landscape architects,

you can't work two hours a day.

You, in my opinion, you can't be a
creative and work eight hours a day

because the creative process doesn't
start with the flip of a switch

and end with the flip of a switch.

Sometimes I don't feel like
drawing, and I don't draw for

days on projects, but I may get a
motivation Thursday at seven o'clock.

And I'll draw for 60 hours
straight focused on what I'm

doing, and I crack the nut.

And so if you put these limited timeframes
on your life, you're never gonna be it.

You're not a, a father eight hours
a day, you're a father, 24 hours

a day, you're a doctor, 24 hours a
day, you're a lawyer, 24 hours a day.

Well, people say, but I wanna have equity
in my life and in my, in my career.

Well, your life is a career
and your career is a career.

Your career is life.

So I've never drawn lines and I've been
blessed to have, uh, my wife who loves my

creativity, she, she expresses her thing.

You know, we have a movie production
studio, uh, ourselves, and she pursues

things that she's interested in.

I pursue things, things
that I'm interested in.

And they're both creative.

So we have that common ground,
but nothing, not everything that,

that you cannot perfect and become
an expert in Chuck's opinion.

With minimal effort.

Yeah.

And, and you asked me what
advice I would give young people.

Young people.

One time a guy told me, he said, you know,
Chuck, and he threw his hands out like

this and he said, A career is this long.

And Chuck, you're right here.

Careers are a long time.

And so you have a long time to perfect.

But if you don't start
perfecting, don't get in a hurry.

If you don't start perfecting on day
one at day 18,000 and you're just

starting, you're behind the curve.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You have to expose yourself to
art and literature and, and, uh,

but you enjoy the journey too.

Chris: Hey.

You gotta mess up a b chuck.

Chuck: In, in, in my life, I'm a designer
who happens to be a father, a husband, you

know, a friend, all these other things.

Design is part of my vocabulary
every day, everywhere I go.

I bet you haven't been

Chris: afraid.

I, I'll tell you this, 'cause I, I,
I can see this is what Chuck does.

He's not afraid to, to put the pence
on the paper and move it forward.

And then if, and then if he gets
through and he goes, I don't

like that you turn the page and
you do a different one, Chris.

'cause you don't like
everything you draw, Des

Chuck: design is an iterative process.

It's iteration after iteration,
after iteration, after iteration.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Don't afraid.

And so I'm very slow and patient.

Don't afraid.

It

Chris: sound like you're not afraid of it.

I mean that's, and that's what I think
the best guys are the ones that they're,

Hey, I'm, I'm going in, I'm gonna do it.

Ah, okay.

That one wasn't the best, but this
one, and then you, you get there.

But that, that's hard for some people.

They, I don't wanna mess up.

I get it.

Chuck: I get it.

But just, yeah, there is no mess up.

It's a personal thing.

I like that.

There's, there's

Chris: not, it's, it's, you had
to get there to get to the next

one, to get to that good spot,

Chuck: you know?

Uh, my mother was a scratch cook, and
if, for those of you who don't know what

that is, a scratch cook is someone who
can open the refrigerator at dinnertime,

pull whatever's in there, and it feels
like a really thoughtful, prepared meal.

Yeah.

And my mother used to
say, and you know what?

The best part about it, if we don't
like it, we'll throw it in the trash.

We'll order a pizza.

And so to me, if you don't like
what you're drawing, tear it off.

Put it in the trash.

Now, did you know, one of the things
that's part of my disciplines, I

never throw anything in the trash.

And even if there's a
sketch that I've started.

And I don't like it.

I just turn to the next page
and start on the next one.

I may come back to that first
page five years later and

turn the Dr. Turn the book.

Upside down and see something
different, and I start over on that same

drawing and it becomes a masterpiece.

It's good to kind of say, okay,
this is my first thoughts.

Let me start again without those thoughts.

And then all I, I'll tell you, after 47
years, my first inclinations are usually

the correct inclinations 90% of the time.

Right.

But I keep working on it and
working on it, and working on it

because I, it's what I like to do.

It's how I solve problems in
my, in my professional life.

And to me it's a journey.

One and done is hard.

And that's the other thing.

And I think a lot of people, young people
today, you say, I need go find out what

the, what the, what the coefficient of,
of, uh, absorption is on this, this paver.

I need to know.

They come back 14 seconds later.

Yeah.

Here it is.

What'd you do?

I looked on Google.

Well.

Is that sponsored by the
people who make that material?

No.

It's just one, a kind
of a Wikipedia thing.

Well, a Wikipedia is a,
is a bunch of opinion.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Go to Elgin's website, look
up their, their specifications

and bring me back the data.

In other words, everybody's
too impatient these days.

Mm-hmm.

We get our solutions in 12 seconds
from Google, you know, not 12 days by

reading and investigating and thinking.

And to me, I think that's the, the
one thing that scares me most about

today's creative set is that, is
the lack of patience to, to really

dig deeply into possibilities.

I'm gonna let

Chris: you expound on this.

Is it because I'm gonna
make a supposition.

You, you, in your career, you've
probably never thought, oh, I want to

do this for 35 years and then sell it.

I wanna build this company up and
then have someone else take it over.

Ever cross your mind?

Well, first of all, I don't own the

Chuck: company,

Chris: my company, but, well, but
I mean that kind of like, yeah.

I'm wanna get to a point where
I've built something and then I'm

Chuck: just wanted to keep doing it.

I'm,

but I'm actually doing that right now.

I say that I don't own the company.

I am one of the senior
owners of the company.

Yeah.

But we are an ESOP corporation.

We were one of the first ESOP employee
stock ownership companies in America.

And uh, uh, I'm able to retire now
and go live a life equal to what

I'm living for the rest of my life
because I invested in our ESOP.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't have a choice as an SOP company,
as an employee, you have to do that.

And SWA was putting money aside for
me all these years, and then I was

putting money into that and then they
were matching that and you know, I just

stayed aggressive with my investments
and 47, I look up 47 years later.

But my point is I am.

Doing that after 47 years, I'm walking
away, I'm turning over what I and

others have built in SWA Dallas,
uh, to a, a new set of young people.

Yeah.

So I am walking away.

Yeah.

One of the things that I'm, I'm
choosing not to do is I'm not

gonna be a consulting principal.

I don't wanna retire on Friday and come
back Monday under my own personal billing

rate and pick up where I left on Friday.

I wanna walk away.

I want those left behind to perpetuate
not my legacy, but the legacy of the

work that my firm has done out of the
Dallas office around the world, and

that my other partners and our 300
employees have done across the globe.

I'm gonna go, I'm gonna
go real personal here.

Chris: Um, what does Chuck McDaniel want?

The young people that
are gonna be coming into.

Your firm or they are
gonna be following you to

know or admire about the
work that you've done?

What, what, what,

Chuck: what legacy?

Well, I think what my, do you wanna
leave my young staff observes in

me is I am in the office with them
every day, drawing and cajoling and

criticizing and taking criticism and,
and, uh, trying to improve our craft.

Look as landscape architects,
we are a service industry.

Architecture's a service industry.

Roofing is a service industry.

We're in service industry.

So service industries rely
upon, uh, personal, intimate

relationships with people.

Mm-hmm.

A continued, uh, legacy of.

Being of service and providing service.

Service that is qualitatively
good and value building.

And so what I want to say to my young
people and they observe it is that here's

a platform, a mature office, a platform
of success that all you have to do is

intimate what you see me doing until
it morphs into exactly who you are.

I don't want them to be me.

I want them to use the platform
that we've made as their personal

launching pad for their personal style.

But service and problem solving is the
foundation of what I do every single day.

And to me that's an honorable
and worthwhile thing.

And then people, we walk around and
people are experiencing something that

we designed and they don't even know it.

When we used to go to these fabulous
resorts that I used to do, and

Matthew and Andrew would go and.

Invariably Matthew would
be over in the pool.

We'd be having a leisurely day
with my family in the pool.

And Andrew would go up.

Matthew would go up to some guy at
the bar and say, my dad designed this.

And the next thing you know, I'm
in a conversation with somebody.

Yeah.

And they find it so fascinating.

But to me that being able to take
Matthew and Andrew to the pool was the

fruits of being very service oriented,
being very attentive to people and to

my clients and to their money and to
their objectives and to their goals.

I like, I like what you

Chris: said about, uh, the young
people, maybe seeing what you've

done, being inspired by it, but not
trying to be you, be themselves.

'cause I'm sure you as an art,
because you're an artist, as an

artist, you admire other people's art.

Oh God.

'cause it came out of their brain, which
you don't have, and you get to experience.

Something that they thought
of that's gonna inspire you,

just like you've inspired

Chuck: others.

I'm inspired.

Uh, uh, really in my world, whenever the
architect, the interior designer, the

structural engineer, they become one mind.

And everybody has a, a
finger in everyone else's.

And when that gels, that
gel, I, that's exciting.

That only creates wonderful
experience for humans, but a

bond of friendship and trust.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm telling you, bonds, friendship
and trust has created a situation where

I've done very, very little marketing.

In my 47 years, I get my work to repeat,
or through reputation or referral.

Mm-hmm.

And I would rather spend time drawing
for my clients than putting together

a PowerPoint show, taking a six hour
plane ride, staying in a hotel, eating

bad food, give be given an hour to
make a presentation, to win a project.

I want you, because I've
heard of what s W's.

Like I want, I want y'all, come
on, we're gonna do a project.

Mm-hmm.

That is a service mentality.

Yeah.

But I'm also serving my interest.

I have an interest in my lifestyle,
my family's security, and in, uh, the

perpetuation of, of, of the McDaniels
as a, as a group of people, you know?

And so I wanna be able to say,
I've held up my end of the bargain.

Chris: I wanna, I'm gonna interject this
'cause you told me this a long time ago.

Um, that, and it's the honesty part.

Oh yeah.

It's, it's the, the honesty
part, um, that I think you've

brought into your profession.

Um, 'cause you've told me, you know,
there's clients that'll come in and

you've told them, um, this isn't
gonna be easy or what you're saying.

I mean, you're upfront with them.

Yeah.

And, and people that have
businesses know this.

When you start telling a client
what's really gonna happen at, at

some point you're kinda like, wow,
I don't wanna lose the job, but

I wanna be honest with this guy.

Here's what I know.

And I, I think what we're talking about
here at the end is part of, I think what

your legacy is gonna be is that, um,
you said at the very first that SWA and,

and your leadership and the other people
that are in leadership at SWA was for

quality and to be the best of the best.

And sometimes that's a little scary
because it's hard to be the best.

'cause sometimes you piss people off.

Oh yeah.

And sometimes you make
decisions that they don't like.

But I, if you want to comment to
that, there's pro, I'm sure there's

been times where you've had to go.

Okay, I'm gonna say it, but
I've got to, well, Chris, I'm,

your integrity has got to be

Chuck: there.

I'm not a, a a a know-it-all.

I don't ever intend to
demean or not accept it.

In fact, I work very hard to
be, to achieve a client's goals.

And I, I mostly succeed in my
entire professional career.

I've been, uh, let go one time and it
was on a project on the Katy Trail.

I've told you I've worked on Katy
Trail, but it was a group that was

adding something to the Katy Trail.

It wasn't the friends of Katy Trail.

And the client kept telling me what
their objective was and I would

draw and he would, and, and he would
say, but we have a $700,000 budget.

And, and everything I was drawing was.

$2 million.

And he would say repeatedly, boy,
I love that idea, is this $700,000?

I said, look, I, you're not
gonna get a $700,000 project.

I mean, we have to change your
basic parameters if you want

a project for that budget.

And so one day, the whole board
of directors from this particular

group sitting in my office, and
frankly I was exhausted at this

point after months of attempting.

And, uh, one of their board members
looked at me and he said, you know,

Chuck, I think you think you know
better than we do, and that, uh,

you're not trying hard enough.

Do you have the bandwidth to even do this?

And this is being asked to me from a guy
who builds apartments here in Dallas.

You, you take one from away
from that what you want.

And, uh, and uh, I said, well,
you know, if I didn't have the

bandwidth, then I wouldn't have had.

32 entrances on the Katy Trail,
brought in on time and on budget.

And so I have a little bit of a knowledge
base of what this is going to take.

And he said, well, I just think that
you think you know better than we do.

And I said, well, I'm
sorry you feel that way.

That's not the case at all.

Well, I went in after that meeting
and I said to my partner, I said,

I'm gonna fire them tomorrow.

I don't want them as a client anymore.

Well, first thing that morning they
called me and they said, Chuck,

we uh, we're gonna, we're gonna
move on with someone else on this.

And I said, oh, thank you so much
because I was gonna call today and tell

you, I think you should move on today.

I think I said both of us were
suffering from this mutual exhaustion.

He said, well, you know, Chuck, I
just have to tell you that we've

been negotiating with a landscape
architect behind your back that says

they can bring the project in in
four and a half months on budget for

700 a thousand, and, uh, meet our.

And, and have their design compose the
elements that we're interested in seeing.

Well, it took five years and $5.8
million to do what they wanted to do, and

they're doing it now on the Katy Trail.

And I wasn't trying to be a, a,
a wise ass or anything like that.

I was just saying, look, I, I
know what these things cost.

Look at what that cost and
look at what that cost.

My point is, is that after all these
years, I have a little bit of base

knowledge about stuff, but still, Chris,
my number one objective is to draw a

solution for a client that first satisfies
me, is what I think public space is.

And then tell a story and convince them.

That what I've designed is in
their district best interest also.

Chris: Yeah.

Chuck: And then that's
a beautiful marriage.

And Dallas has got wonderful gifts
created from my shop that, uh, uh,

represent Dallas's great philanthropic
approach to developing public projects.

Do you have a, I

Chris: mean, there's different styles

Chuck: of architecture.

Do you have a style Well

Chris: look of landscape architecture?

Chuck: I, I think I have that.

Are there

Chris: styles?

Chuck: I, I, well, yeah.

There are, there are people
that do french gardens.

There are, people do English gardens.

There's people who do do
only geometric gardens.

There's people who do only organic stuff.

Okay.

There's people who, more

Chris: formal, more casual,
more formal, more casual.

I

Chuck: think that my interest is in
the, uh, once again, when you solve

problems that are leftover spaces in
life, and that's not all that I do, but

I have found, I, I, my personal design
work is an extension of my sketchbooks.

If you look at my sketchbooks and then
you look at my project work on our, our

website, swa group.com, well, there's
that soft line that he likes to draw.

There's that arc, there's that
thing, you know, and, and so I'm

interested in how a more nature based
organic form can solve all problems.

Mm-hmm.

From movement to grading to
construction, to planting.

You know, I do a lot of formal stuff, but
I love the organic qualities of nature.

You know, they say nature of whos a,
a straight line, well, maybe Chuck

McDaniel's design work, whos a, a straight
line, but I'm known and my, my value

and trade is that I have a beautiful
organic style of design and detailing.

I like that.

Right.

Yeah.

And so, uh.

I would think that, that if, if, if I
were giving one last bit of advice to

a young landscape architect, architect,
or interior designer is be a sponge.

Look at everything around you.

Absorb everything around you.

But work behind the scenes when you're
not responsible for getting outta detail

or a sketch for some more senior person.

Work for yourself behind the
scenes to develop your own style.

And one day you'll have the
confidence to unleash it.

And like I said, somebody may ignore
you for the first two or three

times, but on the fourth time, all
of a sudden you're waiting for that.

Nah, we're not gonna do that.

And all somebody says, that's interesting.

That's when you see that people are
interested in their craft is when they

do something unexpected and unrelated to
their, to what they're doing every day.

Mm-hmm.

Because they're interested in
finding their own footage and

footing and their own direction and.

It's a long career, so keep it up and
have confidence that you, that you can

convince people through storytelling and
beautiful graphics and wonderful detailing

that you can make a difference in, in
the way this world is perceived and used.

I think that's the great opportunity.

Yeah.

Chris: So we're okay.

You're, you're, you're wrapping
it up and you got a big party

coming, and then what's Chuck

Chuck: gonna do?

Well, I'm not gonna wait very long to
do it, you know, and God has really

blessed me throughout my entire life
and, and just, and about three years

ago, we got invited to by some friends
to go to Colorado to a camp that their

family has been involved in for 80 years.

And there's this camp called the Palisade
Retreat Club that sits beside, beside the.

The Gunnison River.

Yeah.

And beside the Palisade Mountain.

Mm-hmm.

And it's a hundred acres and 10
families own the cabins and they

have for continuously families
for 80, 70, 80, 60 years.

Wow.

Well, there was a cabin that was
a real rundown cabin that was not

occupied, the person that died.

And so I found out who owned that cabin.

I called her in Centennial,
Colorado, and I bought that

little cabin, a real fixer upper.

And uh, to make a long story short,
we have a beautiful cabin now in.

A place called the Palisades Retreat Club.

We're going to spend our summers
there and portions of our winters,

our camp owns, uh, our, the 10
families of which you have, you know,

I got voted in to be a member of
the camp and all this kind of stuff.

It's a very, I love the organization,
but we collectively and together

we own a hundred acres and a mile
and a half of Gunnison River.

Chris: Oh my gosh.

That is on one of

Chuck: the, on one of the top fly fishing
links of the river in all of Colorado.

So I'm gonna learn to fly fish.

I'm gonna, uh, continue my,
uh, uh, interest in nature.

I'm going to, uh, uh, be a, hopefully
a helpful grandfather to a young,

uh, Thomas, uh, Miller McDaniel.

Uh, I have visions of taking him to school
and picking him up from school Yeah.

And that type of stuff.

And I'm gonna continue to sketch
every single day of my life.

Yeah.

But I'm going to learn to relax
and have some other kinds of fun,

so I'm, I'm looking forward to it.

Chris: Awesome.

Yeah, that's, that's great.

Well, you should know a little
bit how to fish 'cause you've

gone to the fishing fart.

I do, I know.

For what, 30 year?

30. 33 years.

Chuck: 33 years.

Yeah.

You're, and I, I, I do know
how to fish quite well, but

I don't know how to fly fish.

Oh my gosh.

And everybody tells me trying to
learn to fly fish at 68 is gonna

be like trying to play golf at 68.

I'll never be any good at it,
but I'll love every minute of it.

Chris: Chuck, you're gonna love it
and you're gonna get good at it.

Thanks for watching.

We Chuck McDaniel with SWA landscape
architecture firm here in Dallas

who's making, who has made Dallas.

Come together because we're, we
don't have the big mountains.

We don't have the big lakes, but
now we've at least got parks.

We can, we've, we, Chuck's helped
connect them with, um, with the Katy

Trail, with other elements and to give
us outdoor spaces that really helped

Dallas become a world class city.

Thank you very much for being here.

Chase: Thanks for tuning in to
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