speed kills.
The people that can take a process and
implement it quickly- are going to win
and whether that's processes, you know,
implementing just-in-time inventory
standards or Lean Six Sigma process
discipline so that every repair-
Yeah … is, you know, 99.999% reliable.
And you have to realize that excellence
is a process, not a destination.
Something you have to practice every
day and do over and over and over
Again through iterative improvement.
And honest self-evaluation.
You can't lie to yourself and get
better, I don't seek, fame and riches
for the sake of fame and riches.
You know, designing an excellent company,
assembling an excellent team is a way
to, help these men and women provide for
their families, glorify God and, and grow.
Hello, my name is Reese Arrington.
Welcome to Building Dallas.
We talk about Dallas stories, businesses,
uh, from the ground to the roof.
We have a really special guest
today, someone that I, I've known
for… or at least he's known me
for, I think, my whole life, right?
I think it's probably right.
Yeah, I think that's probably true.
Yeah, he started out at the Naval Academy.
He's a naval flight officer, test
pilot, MBA of, uh, a- at Columbia
Uni- uh, Business School, a BS in
computer science at the Naval Academy.
Uh, he's conducted due diligence for
special purpose acquisitions companies,
led a successful one at that, managed
PNLs up to $35 million, built and scaled
a con- consumer fintech startup up to
20- $125 million evaluation, bridging
technology, finance, and real estate.
Today we have Robert Reagan.
Hey, Reese.
Thanks for coming on.
Yeah.
Thanks, man.
Thanks for
having me.
I appreciate it.
Yeah.
We're happy to have you here.
Yeah.
Yeah, so, um, you know, our, our
family has been friends for, gosh,
35 years, thir- or maybe longer.
Yeah,
I mean, it's since ever I- s-
going back to the very first
memories that I can have.
Mm-hmm.
So.
Yeah, and you were kinda, uh, you
were quite a bit older than me.
I mean, not that you're
super old or anything.
That's
a
nice way of putting it.
Yeah.
But, but… Yeah.
You're older than me.
I mean, I
didn't just trim in my beard for this.
Yeah, yeah.
I think there's no way.
I mean, you look, you look great.
Yeah.
But, um, your, your sister, Shannon,
was my babysitter, like my main
babysitter- Yeah … growing up.
And so you were kinda this guy that,
you know, I looked up to because you,
you went off to the Naval Academy.
You were doing these really cool things.
I always had a lot of respect for that.
Um, and then afterwards, um, I got to see
more of you, you know, coming back- Yeah
from the Naval Academy.
So just going back to those days, you
know, what made you wanna go to the
Navy, and what was the experience like?
Yeah.
Uh, I mean- Honestly, I grew up
thinking I was gonna go to Texas A&M
and be a mechanical engineering major.
Oh.
And kinda didn't really even think
about it till about junior year in high
school, when I started to realize that,
uh, wherever I went, I was gonna have
to figure out how to get the money for
it, and ROTC scholarships and the Naval
Academy started looking pretty good.
Right.
Uh, was fortunate enough to get in
and get a nomination and, and pass all
that stuff, and so the rest is history.
Yeah.
I pivoted from mechanical
engineering into computer science.
I thought… I was a very prescient young
18-year-old, I think, thinking that,
uh, realizing that of the academies,
the Navy puts you into this, uh, service
that has to be stationed near the water.
Mm-hmm.
So generally better real estate
than all the other services
that just need cheap dirt.
Right.
Uh, and then I thought, "Oh,
well, computers are gonna be
the wave of the future," so.
Mm-hmm.
I
mean, and, you know, I'll date
myself back in, uh, the dot…
You know, the 2001 e- era.
That was, uh… It was the dot com boom,
but not exactly, um, hadn't transformed.
You know, we didn't have-
Right
…
iPhones or anything like that yet.
Mm-mm.
And- Yeah, iPhone came out, what, 2008?
2007, I think.
2007?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that was your-
Thereabouts.
Yeah, yeah.
So what, so what formation
did going to the Naval Academy
have on your future self?
I mean- Yeah … I, I imagine takes
a lot of self-discipline or at least
a lot of, uh, you have guys that
are in charge of you that are- Yeah
drilling in discipline, so
did it form good habits?
So it definitely teaches you an awareness
of discipline and the value of discipline.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I probably, probably should've
taught me a lot more discipline
than I currently have, I think.
Yeah.
I didn't absorb all the
lessons, but I did my best.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, in reality, um, I think what
it, it really did was expose me to,
um, being a manager of tradespeople.
Like at its fundamental level- Gotcha
… the Navy is an organization of specialized
tradespeople that work on different parts
of a ship- Mm-hmm … different parts
of an airplane, different disciplines
and administrative functions and stuff,
and, uh, being able to take a generalist
and management view- Mm … of all of
those functions and, and figure out how
to lead and manage was, uh, probably
the biggest thing I got out of the Navy.
Yeah.
So, you know, it brings up a kind
of interesting topic of, you know,
discipline versus love of the game-
Yeah … whatever the game is, right?
Um, did you just love being in the Navy?
I mean, was it something that
you woke up and you're like,
"Yeah, I get to- Good question.
Good question … you know, do,
uh, do PT all day and all this- Oh
you know, or was it really just doing your
duty?
No, I mean, let's pump the brakes.
It's the Navy, not the Marines.
We don't, we don't PT all day.
Okay, okay.
Uh, but, uh, yeah, I mean, like
the… I certainly loved what I did.
So I flew a, an airplane that
was designed to hunt submarines,
um, from the sky, which is a
pretty fun, uh, and challenging,
like, tactical problem to solve.
Yeah.
That was, that was great.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, uh, but yeah, you know, the,
the Navy has a way of, um- putting a
bunch of administrative load on you that
makes all the fun stuff not quite as fun.
Okay.
You can't enjoy it quite as much.
Uh, I enjoyed the service.
I enjoyed the people.
I'm happy to be out and be
doing, you know, kinda charting
my own course here, so.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
But tho- but those skills and
that, that discipline that
probably lent you to, you know-
Certainly
…
ha- have to put that somewhere
else after you left Enable Academy.
Absolutely.
Right?
I mean, it's, well, I mean, I, I
think they're just foundational skills
for really any career, any career or
discipline that you wanna go into.
Mm-hmm.
Being disciplined and focused and
organized is kind of table stakes,
I think, to, to, for success.
Yeah.
So what's the process to
getting into the cockpit?
I mean, you flew the planes, right?
Yeah.
So, so I mean, not many people get
to that level where they actually-
Sure … have control- Um … over
that how- however many million dollar-
Yeah.
So- … aircraft … uh, y-
you mentioned it earlier, so
I was a naval flight officer.
That's like Goose in Top Gun, right?
Like, the guys in the back.
Okay.
I see.
Or if you wanna go with the more of a
main character energy, it would be, uh,
Owen Wilson from Behind Enemy Lines.
Okay.
Uh, the, uh, naval flight officer, mostly
the same pass as a, path as a pilot.
Mm-hmm.
You, um, start out in the same
basic, uh, indoctrinate, aviation
indoctrination course down in Pensacola.
Mm-hmm.
Um, y- then you go to a squadron where
you get the basic hands-on mechanics
of flying, and then as soon as you've
got that phase behind you, you're doing
instrument navigation and working with
a pilot to, to manage an air- Okay
an aircraft in a mission.
Um, yeah, in mine we had anywhere
up to 20 people on board the
airplane, and so the pilots would
concern themselves about keeping the
plane in the sky and making sure-
Mm-hmm … it went where it needed to.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, as the naval flight
officer in the back, I was
running the whole mission crew to-
Oh, wow
to get the job done.
Okay.
So in that kinda plane, are you
hitting, like, crazy G-forces, or is
it- Oh, no … kind of a cru- cruiser?
It's a, it's a- It's- … slow
and relatively low for, like,
tactical air or airliners.
Um, but the, um… Like, the main
mission of finding submarines, you'd
be as low as 200 feet over the water.
Oh, wow.
Uh, and, I mean, pulling
some G-forces, but not-
Right
…
we're not talking about, like- You're
not, your face isn't
melting into the- Nobody's
blacking out- Yeah … or like-
Yeah.
Yeah … you know, getting- That's cool.
You don't get any of that.
So, w- you know, I know that, you
know, there's th- these missions
that are relatively, probably
very well thought out, right?
Like, you- Yeah.
But have there, has there ever been a
moment where you experienced some sort
of, like, danger or like, okay, like, you
know, this might not go how we want it
to?
Uh, I mean, like, so bad guy danger or-
Uh, either, either- … most of the, most
of the danger … either, either one.
Either one.
I mean, natural- Yeah
natural, uh, danger of
being in an airplane- Sure.
I mean- … uh, that low to
the ground, or bad guy danger
…
I did a lot of missions, um, up to
the shoreline- Mm-hmm … uh, of Libya
during, like, the fall of the Gaddafi
regime when they had a bunch of, uh, SA-5
missiles that are kinda giant telephone
pole-sized surface-to-air missiles
that go faster than the speed of sound.
Yeah.
But I think… It's been a long
time, but I think they're, like,
Mach 5, so- Mm-hmm … about 10 times
faster than my airplane could fly.
Plenty, plenty fast
enough to catch up, right?
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, just managing
that risk and understanding how to
avoid, get well with inside their
engagement envelope from, like, a
distance, but staying below their
radar horizon so they couldn't see us.
Uh-
Mm-hmm
…
you know, we were being extra safe and,
and thoughtful about how to do that.
In reality, I think, I don't think any
of them- Um, really could have taken
a shot at us- Right … so I don't
think any of them were functional.
That was the- Right … kind of
the, um, like the 80% confidence-
Mm-hmm … intel assessment.
Um, anyway it- Yeah … yeah, it was a
safe environment, but- Sure … you still
have to manage that risk 'cause if it's
not, like, it, it's- Wow … no matter
what the intel analyst on the ground says
about, like, "Yeah, we think this thing's,
this SAM's not gonna shoot at you."
Sure.
It's still your, you know-
Mm-hmm … your body in that airplane-
Yeah
and you- And so when you're up
there, you're- … gotta manage
it
…
y- you're, you're using your machines
to locate the submarines, right?
Uh,
yeah.
And, and then, are, are, do,
do y'all take the, the shot?
Uh, so we actually did fire a shot.
This was on the… We were
mostly, um, surveillance mode
for this mission set- Mm-hmm
where we're watching what's going
on in the Libyan cities and stuff.
Uh, and, uh, actually, a sortie right
before mine one day ended up did, it
did engage a boat with a, a missile.
Oh.
Like, they were taking potshots at some,
uh, refugee boats and, and so they-
Wow.
Yeah.
So when you shoot a missile- Blew them up
into the water-
Yeah
…
and, I mean, you know, we've
all seen, you know, war movies.
Is it, is it spectac- I mean, are
you even close enough to see the, the
aftermath?
Uh, you're not, definitely not close
enough to see it with your own two eyes.
Right.
Uh, at least clearly.
Mm-hmm.
It's, you get a good view on, on
the, the camera turret, but- Yeah
and that's what we all, we were
all watching the camera video, so-
So you're, like- … that's
a fact … sitting there
behind it, like … Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's pretty sweet.
Yeah.
Well, that's awesome, man.
Um, and so you studied BS,
uh, computer science, right?
Computer science, yeah.
Computer science, uh, there.
Uh-huh.
And then you transitioned
from there to Columbia.
So how, where was- Well- Where did that-
Yeah
…
transition happen?
Was there time in between that?
Or did you- Oh, plenty
of time- … just kind of
go- … in between that, yeah … straight
there?
So I, uh, I spent almost
10 years in the Navy.
Um, I guess for all the veterans
looking at transitioning out, uh,
my, my heartfelt, uh, encouragement
for you to stick with it.
It's a tough transition- Mm … to
go from, um, you know, military
government service to try and
translate into the civilian world.
Uh- Sure.
I was going to job fairs and stuff and
wasn't really liking what I was seeing.
Um, and I had previously made
the decision, I think probably
to my detriment, that I didn't
wanna go to business school.
I was already a mid-career age
professional doing, you know, making
money, and I- Mm-hmm … I just
assumed that I would find something.
Uh- Right … and so kind of put off
the idea of going to business school.
Um, and then after go- hitting a few
career fairs and stuff like that and,
and not really liking what I was seeing
as far as the options before me at
that time, decided, you know what?
Maybe, maybe getting into an MBA
program is a good way to get a little
bit more, um- you know, glitz and glam,
I guess, on my resume- Sure … get
in front of different opportunities.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and so I went and took the
GMAT, did like, really well.
And so I was like, "Well, whatever
comes out, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
go to business school eventually."
Yeah, yeah.
'Cause it's like, kinda
too good to walk away from.
And so the, real quick, the GMAT is
the- … preliminary test you take to
have an aptitude- Yeah, it's the, uh,
yeah, it's like the SATs- … so kind of,
okay … but for, for business school.
Gotcha.
Um, and, uh, in between taking the
GMAT and deciding to, to go to business
school eventually, I was kind of
like, out of cycle to, to get in right
when I was getting out of the Navy.
Mm-hmm.
Um, ended up getting a fantastic
opportunity with General Motors to, to
run their… or to be a senior design
release engineer, which is a fancy name
for, like, engineering project manager,
for the autonomous vehicle program.
Oh.
And so that was a, uh, like, a pretty
unique opportunity for, um, you
know, a guy fresh out of the Navy
rolling to a, uh, you know, Fortune
10 automobile manufacturer- Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
…
um, kind of on the cutting
edge of technology.
And so when was that?
That was in 2000,
2016. Okay.
Okay,
so the- So they- So that was- It
was right before, or right when
they were announcing that they
had bought, uh, Cruise Automation-
Okay
…
in San Francisco.
So I was helping build the,
the test vehicles for that- Hmm
um, project, and in the future,
um, what they were- Hmm … going
to take to production.
I think they, they've scrapped that
business, and then Google's got-
Yeah … or Waymo rather, has a-
Right … little bit too much of a,
a lead there, and they've decided to
m- migrate all the technology into
their Super Cruise and, and- Mm-hmm
production level-
Yeah
…
vehicles.
But-
So was that, was that
kinda with the curve?
I mean, when, like, when did
Tesla start doing self-driving?
I mean, Waymo's barely gotten there-
Yeah … in the last few years.
So, um, Tesla was talking about
doing self-driving, and had done
some of their autopilot stuff.
Uh, Waymo… The, the DARPA…
So the, the, kinda the, the origins
of anybody paying attention to
self-driving was the, what was it?
The DAR- some DARPA challenge.
I can't remember the name.
It's-
Mm-hmm
…
escaping me right now.
But DARPA is the Defense- Um, something
advanced research projects agency or,
again- Okay … don't quote me on that.
Yeah.
I'm sad that this is being recorded.
But it stands for something fancy.
It's the government's way of
saying, uh, inve- you know,
develop some cool technology that
we can use on weapons systems.
Okay.
And, uh, you know, we'll let you
commercialize it too, but we're just
gonna offer a bounty for really, solving
really cool technical challenges.
Got you.
Okay, so
there's- So that, yeah, that, that DARPA
challenge yielded- Mm-hmm … the one
of the, they, they had the challenge
to be able to drive through a, a road
course in the desert without any driver.
Hmm.
And that kinda just ignited a spark, and
it s- it smoldered for I think 10 years.
I think the original one was in like
2005 or, or kinda early mid-2000s.
And it smoldered for a few years
until it really got close to being
commercializable, and that's when- Okay
… uh, folks like Google, a lot of the people
that- Mm-hmm … that started up Google
and Uber and, uh, these other self-driving
car programs all- Right … came out
of that, that original DARPA challenge.
Yeah, that's so interesting 'cause,
you know, I, I remind myself that
United States does, the government
doesn't really produce anything, right?
Yeah.
Uh, e- even all our weaponry-
Mm-hmm … all of the, you know, fleets
that we have- Yeah … to develop
are all done in the private sector.
But you don't really think, you think
Lockheed Martin, you think like these
weapons manufacturers- Yeah … that
basically are just the only, uh,
client they have is the US government.
You don't, I don't usually think
about companies like General Motors-
Right … doing military, uh, development
for the national- Yeah … government.
Um, so what is like, you know,
uh, how does that work and how do
those co- do you know how those
contracts kinda get awarded?
I mean-
Oh, that's beyond me.
That is-
Yeah?
Yeah.
If I knew, I'd probably be in a
different b- line of business.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a, um, a very particular
like contract-winning process.
Mm-hmm.
But it must be a good place to be in
as General Motors to go, "Okay, we're
gonna get a contract with the gen- with
the national government to-" Well, the-
to make something that then
we also get to repurpose for-"
Yeah, I mean, uh, um- "… our, our
consumers"
…
the, uh, DARPA's really just offering
I think it was a million dollar bounty.
Like if you were the first- Hmm … to
finish the challenge, you got a million
dollars which, I mean, the level of
investment and effort into winning the
challenge, it pr- would, wouldn't even
pay a fraction of the, the cost of entry.
Right.
Like the actual cost-
Right … of building the product.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it was more just to spark and
drive the innovation towards autonomous
systems and- Okay … um, and, you know,
sensory and perception problems, compute
problems- Mm-hmm … spatial awareness.
There, just a lot of, um, new
technology that w- had to get
developed to support all of that.
And we see it a lot today.
Yeah.
I mean, even, well, even this- Mm-hmm
… has a little LIDAR camera in it that I'd,
you know, maybe would've had some LIDAR
development- Without the DARPA challenge,
but it certainly… I, I don't know.
I mean, maybe it would.
Right.
Yeah.
It's more- So is it, is it more like
a badge of honor these companies get
to compete?
Yeah.
I mean, it's like, it's like the
Super Bowl for, uh, robotics nerds.
Okay.
Right?
Like, it's like-
Yeah
…
like, "Let's go win this thing and-
Uh-huh … and
take," you know.
Like, that's the…
Think about it that way.
Yeah.
And so how many of these… Are
these multiple challenges going on
at a time
or-
Oh, I, like, I never, I never
actually competed in that challenge.
Mm-hmm.
So I, I can't say for sure,
but I mean, there were, there
were a lot of different teams.
Well, 'cause you were a soldier.
You weren't a nerd, right?
I mean, I was the, I was
the nerd in the airplane.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I always thought of you as a
soldier, if that makes you- There you go.
Yeah.
Stroked my ego.
There we go.
Yeah, yeah.
You were out there, man.
I remember your brother came back
one day, uh, from… We were at
church, and, you know, James was
always just, like, pretty skinny.
You know?
Yeah.
And he comes back, and he, like,
his, like, traps go up to his ears.
Yeah.
And he was, like, massive.
I'm like, "Holy crap." He was like, "Yeah,
I'm trying to be a Navy SEAL," you know?
Yeah.
I was like, "Wow, man. These, these
Reagan boys are, are badass." Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
He
definitely had a lot more focus
on, on that part of things.
I was, uh- I was the nerd challenge kinda-
Yeah
…
kinda problem solver.
Well, it seems like
it's worked out for you.
Yeah.
I mean, just looking at this,
um, you know, managing, you know,
eight fi- you know, h- decently
high eight figures, uh- Yeah
you know, taking companies public
in a kind of a different way than-
Yeah … what people usually think.
So, you know, how did,
how did that come about?
Um, you know, the, the SPAC, right?
If you can- Yeah, so- … explain what
that is- … and then how you got into
that- Sure … and what it involves taking
a company public through that process.
Yeah, I mean, so I, uh… That was
a very interesting, um, opportunity
I had come up in business school.
Um, and it, you know, and again, it's, uh,
just an interesting thread through my life
story where I, you know, spent a couple
years at General Motors, then to get into
Columbia Business School and go there and
find that, um, there is a kind of a, an
adjunct faculty member that used to be the
chairman of the board at General Motors.
And I just say, "Hey, I just was just
working there. I'd love to have like a
30-minute kinda office hours conversation
with you." Went and met him, and, uh,
it turns out he was running a SPAC and
offered me a, like a free internship just
to kinda put into practice what I was
learning in my, my MBA basics courses- Wow
and stuff like that.
And, um, got an interesting
opportunity to look at a, a few,
uh, targets and diligence and
consider them for acquisition.
Uh, and then right when they
started looking at the, the company
they took, they ended up buying,
I would… had started with the,
um, the mortgage startup already.
So- Okay
I was already kind of in the, on the way
out the door with them as they s- they
started those conversations, but, uh, I
got a bunch of, of rounds of, um, looking
at some, some deals that didn't work out.
Gotcha.
Um- And so SPAC, not S-PAC.
I guess that's my- Eh … my
ignorance, you know?
Yeah.
You can call it whatever you
want.
Yeah, you can call it
SPASC.
Yeah.
I don't care.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so in, in that process, you know,
how I understood it from all my limited
research is- Yeah … you have, you
have a company that, that is going to,
uh, you know, private equity, right?
Yeah.
That's going to… That is a pub-
is a publicly traded, uh, group,
right, or fund essentially- Right.
It's a- … that absorbs a
smaller privately owned business.
Smaller, bigger, doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter.
The, the gist is it's kind of a, a cheat
code around the disclosure requirements
and, uh, the typical path and roadshow
you have to do to take a company public.
Mm-hmm.
What, uh, a SPAC is, is some investors
will pull a bunch of money and put it in
a bank account, and they'll form a company
that owns that bank account, right?
Right.
And all they do is just sit on cash.
They don't have any operations.
Mm-hmm.
And then that company will go
look for a business to merge with.
Hmm.
Right?
So the merger process is less regulatory
requirements, and this is where,
again, like I'd… I go talk to an
investment banker to get all the-
Right … the insider details on this.
But, uh, it's cheaper, it's easier,
um, and it's less scrutinized.
Uh, like, your financials
are less scrutinized.
There's less of a, a
process to go through.
Okay.
Um, and so you can, you can find
some interesting deals that way.
Yeah.
It was really hot back in the early 2020s.
Mm-hmm.
Kinda late 2019 through 2022 maybe.
Okay.
Um, really kind of a popular thing.
And there's still some, some going
now, but I think they've… A
couple of famous ones blew up and-
Yeah
…
the bloom was off the rose
from s- uh, the investor-
Mm-hmm
…
uh, population there.
So- So
will those SPACs, will they end
up acquiring just one company or
will they go after multiple ones?
Yeah, I
mean,
it's- Does this snowball
kinda gets rolling?
Typically, you, you, you wanna form
one operating public company, right?
Okay.
So they've got this public company listed
on a stock exchange that just holds cash.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and you're gonna wanna end
up with a business that looks
good for public reporting, right?
Sure.
So you don't wanna have just any-
Right
…
collection of businesses.
Right.
And so they'll, they're typically
looking for kind of one operational play.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Um, yeah, so you, so you did
that, you know, and, and you, you
built up a, the fintech company.
So is that where you were…
Is that the mortgage company
you're talking about- Yeah
that you were kind of
transitioning to at the time?
Yeah.
So during my, uh, my, uh, summer,
uh, you know, between the two
years of business school, uh, a
friend had gotten his startup.
He was also in business school,
another Navy friend of mine.
Um, got his startup into Y
Combinator, which is a, kind of
a famous startup accelerator.
And coming out of there, he looked like
he was gonna get funded, and, uh, said,
you know, "If you come on with me, you
know, they'll give you an internship.
We'll see where this goes." Mm-hmm.
I was like, "Sure." I, you
know, got nothing to do.
I'm in business school, and I don't know
if they… I don't know if the secret's
out yet, but there's not a whole lot
of actual real work in, for - Okay
that you have to do in business school.
Sure.
You've got free time for extracurriculars.
Gotcha.
Uh, and so that's what I, you know,
what I decided to spend my, my free
time with for the remainder of my time.
And, and then, uh, I was… I
picked a fortunate year . I picked
an interesting year to wrap up
my b- school degree in 2020.
Mm-hmm.
So because of that, the, my-
Yeah … was supposed to go off to
London and be a management consultant,
pretty kind of vanilla MBA track.
Mm-hmm.
Um, the 2020 COVID pandemic, all
the start dates got delayed, and
I had a young son and a wife that
like to eat and sleep inside.
Yeah.
So waiting a year to start
that job was not in the cards.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and they had just gotten
funded, so I was like, "Hey, man,
I'll come on full time. Let's,
let's go. Let's do this." Yeah.
And we ended up raising two, like
a series A and a series B, um,
before that, uh, c- uh, consulting
start date came around for me.
So I-
Really?
…
I told them, "Thanks, but no thanks. I'm
gonna commit all in here," and, um, yeah.
And so how much time did
you spend at that company?
That would've been, if you count
like the kinda halftime, uh-
internship days.
Mm-hmm.
It would have been Almost four years.
Okay.
And so where'd y'all start and
where'd you end up when you left?
So we started at like three guys
and working, like, on laptops in,
uh, college hous- like, you know-
Sure
business school housing.
Uh-huh.
In my apartment in New York.
Uh, or a, a Regis, like, single
office in, um, in Cambridge.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, went from that to $125 million
evaluation on our Series B. Um, yeah, it
was a, a pretty exciting journey to, to
grow that business- Yeah … that fast.
Um, it's been- So from,
so from debt, right,
owing investors, right?
Yeah.
To, to having an
evaluation of $125 million.
Yeah.
Um, massive, massive progress for-
Yeah
…
for that short amount of
time.
In four years.
Uh, yeah.
Or, yeah.
I mean, yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
So, um, there's a lot, probably a lot
that happened in those four years that-
Oh, yeah
…
got you there.
But I'm sure that, you know, um, like with
work- working with my dad's company- Yeah
there was a lot.
There's a lot there, right?
Yeah.
There's already a lot there.
So do you think that there's some benefit
to starting from scratch sometimes?
Oh, yeah.
Certainly.
Like, uh, you need to… There's…
The benefit of starting from scratch
is really having, as an operator, is
having that ground level awareness
of like what are the fundamental
things that make this business tick.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
What are the operational challenges?
What does it feel like to push through
a challenge, you know, that specific
kind of challenge, and solve it?
What does fixed look like?
What does right look like?
Um, coming in… So, I mean,
cutting my teeth, this was…
The startup was in the mortgage
business, and, you know, I went to…
I did online training to get a, a
mortgage license to be a loan originator.
Uh, I got the business registered as at
different levels in kind of the, from
brokerage all the way up to correspondent
lending, and this isn't the podcast to
get into those nitty-gritty details.
Yeah, sure.
But suffice it to say, like, I had
to fight through a lot of regulatory
and, um, kind of partner compliance
issues and learn, like, what we needed
to do to get over, to clear, like,
milestone hurdles to grow our business.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, to walk in and just kind of take
the reins after that's been fought, you
don't really have a good… You know,
borrow from a, from more of a military
term, but you don't have a good awareness
of your battle space when you kind of
just parachute in- Gotcha … and start-
Mm-hmm
…
you know, start from
something already created.
Yeah.
Uh, that said, it's certainly
possible to parachute in.
Yeah.
You just have to take a different
kind of leadership track.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, it can… You end up
blowing up a lot of what exists if you
already have foundation there that-
Yeah … isn't currently working.
And, uh, you know, the hard part
about that is that it involves people.
Yeah.
You know?
And that's where it's, like, really tough,
um, because, you know, we, we get into
business because we wanna serve people.
Right.
And then when you go into a system
where, you know, maybe it's the
wrong people in the wrong place,
the wrong people in general-
Oh,
yeah … you have to make changes.
I mean, that's where
things get really tough.
Yeah, I mean, that's… And
that's- It's the same though when
you start from scratch, right?
Sure.
Um, and you can't, you can't, uh… Like,
a, a good way to think about it is if
you're running a business, your, your job
is to make sure the business runs, right?
And that's really best for
everybody at the business- Mm-hmm
if the business stays in business.
Right.
Kind of basic, right?
But, um, it's when you, when you
start to change your scope from the
forest to, like, this tree or that,
you know, to this person or that
person- Mm … that's where that,
that, you know, emotionally challenging
decision making comes into place.
Like, is this person in the right seat,
or is this person even on the right bus?
Like, should they be in
this- Right … on this team?
There might be a better place
for them somewhere else, and,
like, you can't provide that.
You run your own… You
run the bus you're driving.
Like, that, that's it, right?
You run the business you're running.
Um, and, uh-
So on, on your team, I mean, you
had… You were doing this with
three diff- two different people.
There was three or four of you?
Four, uh, the mortgage business?
The, the
start, yeah, starting that
up.
Yeah.
So we started out with, uh,
just the two co-founders and me.
Okay.
Um, very shortly after they got
funded, they brought on another
couple, uh, from the Boston area,
a couple of, of folks there.
Um, and then, uh, we grew to…
I think we had over 100
people at one point.
Wow.
Um.
Well, so when- Yeah … you talk about
personality, you know, um, th- with
those kind of original handful of people-
Mm-hmm
…
did… Were y'all's personalities
really complimentary?
I mean, did you have some people that
were just really data, data-driven, some
people that were really people-driven?
I mean- Uh- … how did
y'all mesh together?
I'd say we were mostly
data-driven group of, of guys.
And, you know, I wasn't a f- a
founder, I was kind of employee.
Mm-hmm.
If you count the two founders,
I was employee number three.
Gotcha.
Um, but, uh, the… Yeah, I mean,
I… We were all pretty data-driven
folks, I think, and pretty,
pretty brass tacks type of people.
Gotcha.
Um, and I think that might've been one
of our s- and that's not to say nobody
had any emotional intelligence, but I
think- Sure … if you, if you were to
put the front runner for all, all three
of us, it would've been data-driven
and f- fact-based decision making.
Um, the, uh- Yeah.
I mean, it was, it was a, it was
a fun business to build, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean… And that's just so, so
different than, you know… My dad's a
great businessman, and I… But, and I
take after him a lot- Yeah … in just,
like, the emotional side of things.
I mean, we're, we're both very,
like, high I on, like, the DISC test.
Sure.
You know?
We like the influence.
It's gotta be fun, you know?
Yeah.
And then I noticed that, you know, taking
the test again, I've become more high D.
Yeah.
You know?
But, you know, I'm always pretty
low on the, the S and the C.
Okay.
You know?
Um, yeah.
So it's, it's, you know, get things
done quickly, but, like, let's make
it really fun doing it, you know?
Yeah.
And sometimes, um, that's not as conducive
to just, like, you know, really, uh,
looking at the data and slowing down
and not making emotional decisions.
Because- Sure … if it's not fun, like
firing someone, you know, having to have-
Well, I think we're in- … difficult
conversations, like those things
aren't really that fun to do sometimes.
Yeah.
I mean, it's certainly never
fun to… Well, I don't know.
Maybe there's some people out there
that have fun with it, but I don't
think it's very fun to have the- Yeah
you know, the tough coaching
conversations or, like, the, you
know, termination conversations.
None of that's ever, like, fun to do.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but it's just a necessary
part of driving a, you know,
an efficient organization.
Um- Yeah.
But I mean, to your point, I think we're,
like, uh… We're in a new era where I
think a, like, the, the people focus can
really excel a little bit better than,
and a little bit more, with more- Mm-hmm
impact than it used to.
'Cause I think the, the data-based
decisions are getting a lot,
uh, easier to find and make.
Hmm.
Right?
Like, I think it's easier- Sure … now
than it has ever been to get the right
data, if you know how to get it, and to
make the right decision from that data.
I mean- Mm-hmm … you can
basically ask an AI to do it.
The… You know, right?
And if you've got everything wired up
properly or you've got your business-
Yeah … you know, disciplined enough
to capture the right data in the right
ways so that a computer can see it, like,
you can get, uh- accurate data to, to
drive a decision really quickly, right?
And so it used to be you had to, you'd
have some spreadsheet in mind that
you wanted to make and then like some
graph or, you know, some analysis
of it that, and, and go through
hours and, I mean, at least I did.
I mean- Right … hours and hours of
trying to figure out what's going on
in the data, where is my data wrong
maybe and- Mm-hmm … and, you know,
decipher signal out of that noise.
Right.
Um-
And master Excel-
Right … spreadsheet creator to-
Yeah … just
get basic sales data.
Right.
And now you can just kinda ask Claude-
Yeah
or ChatGPT to do it for you and-
Yeah … you get a great product.
And so circling back to what you're
saying, like that, um, you know, used
to be that the business, and kind of
one of my working theories right now is
the businesses that would win had that
really strict operational discipline
and not that being people-focused
wasn't, uh, helpful, but it was
just kind of a more muted signal.
Mm-hmm.
And now that I think making data
decisions and data analysis is easier,
I think that it just becomes more
important now to, uh, be a people person.
Yeah.
And- 'Cause so, you know,
for businesses it's just more
accessible to have this data.
Yeah.
So your differentiator, your secret
sauce, is gonna have to be how do you
create winning cultures that- Right
are gonna drive and attract
top talent.
I mean, at the end of the day, it,
you gotta get the people behind you.
Right.
Right?
And if it's… Yeah, like no business, it,
you know, no business is gonna run without
everybody rowing in the same direction.
Right.
And so, um, if you're that people person
that can ask Claude the question, get
the answer, and say, "Okay, people,
here's where we're going," and get
them behind you, you're gonna win.
Yeah.
You
get the right people.
That's always been important.
I just think that the data analysis
is becoming less of a necessary skill
set to have and something more you
can just grab right off the shelf.
Right.
No, it makes sense.
So talking about people, you know-
Yeah … I know we kind of mentioned
this before we started recording, but,
you know, how do you find good people?
You mentioned- Yeah … you
mentioned you create them.
I h- I found a lot of
ways to not find them.
I found a lot of the wrong ones bef- uh,
just like I, I would not grade myself
as a successful, uh, talent scout.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I think I've been pretty
successful, especially lately, of
figuring out ways to, to make the people.
Like I… The business I run today is
a, a very niche- Yeah … trade, right?
Mm-hmm.
We do water well pump servicing.
And if I wanna grow my, if I wanna
double my business, I've gotta find twice
as many people that I currently have,
uh, that know how to pull a pump out
of the ground, you know, troubleshoot
it, diagnose it, fix it, put it back.
Um- That is a pretty rare skill.
Like, it's not something
that's just growing on trees.
Yeah.
Um- Can't put like an Indeed ad out for it
… most people are shocked to hear that…
Yeah, most people I talk to are shocked to
hear that houses still have water wells.
Huh.
Um, and so, uh, you know, it,
it's became acutely, um, obvious
to me that the only real way to
find good people was to make them.
Like, put them through the ringer as,
you know, juniors and assistants and, but
be structured and, um, organized about
how they can upskill themselves and, and
become a, a lead producer instead of, you
know, the assistant that holds the shovel
or, you know- Right … turns the wrench.
Um- Yeah, I mean, honestly, I've…
That's been one of my little AI
exercises lately, is how to deliver a,
a good training platform for my people.
Sure.
And yeah, I mean, I've spent a lot
of time trying to develop, you know,
good training, and I think it's
easy to overcomplicate it, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, I, I… You know, it's like
I got, like, 45 pages into this
whole document and I'm like, "Okay,
I, I've been in roofing for…"
You know, I'm 34 years old- Yeah … but
I've been doing it since I was
17, so- Yeah … you know, 16, 17
years, uh, in roofing and I, I can't
train someone to have 16 years of
knowledge- Right … in four weeks.
It's just not gonna be possible.
So it's like, okay, you just gotta
find out where to start, you know?
Yeah.
And, and especially in sales,
I've figured out, um, willingness
isn't enough, you know?
Right.
Someone who's just willing, it's
like, okay, um, you've gotta be at
least decent at talking to people.
Yeah.
Especially if you wanna be on outside
sales having to go win new business.
Mm-hmm.
You have to be confident and not nervous.
And so, you know, kinda the, the key
things I look for isn't roofing knowledge.
Yeah.
It's just personality.
It's how, how nervous are you
in this interview right now?
Yeah.
Because y- uh, you're not asking
me for any money and you're
not asking me for $50,000.
You… All, all you're asking
for is a job, you know?
Right.
I mean, which is important, but i-
if you can keep your cool in this
situation, answer my questions,
ask me some good questions- Right
then that's kinda… It's
almost like step one.
Yeah.
Has that kinda been a little
bit of your experience?
Uh, oh, 100%.
I definitely test in interviews for,
like, do… Would I feel comfortable,
would my wife feel comfortable
talking to this person in the house?
Mm-hmm.
Would, uh, this person be a
good reflection of what I want
my business to project, right?
W- are they going to…
Are they gonna be moldable?
That's another thing, right?
Like, I'm not expecting people to come
in as the perfect candidate, you know,
with… On every aspect of their life
except having water well knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
But I am looking for people that are going
to communicate that they're coachable.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
'Cause if you have a system and a
process that you wanna run, like, you
need to find people that are willing
to come in and learn it and do it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and we do, right?
So we have, we have our in-the-home
system, the way of talking to,
uh, clients and helping them, you
know, f- from our way to how to
troubleshoot the, um, the problem, how
to come up with technical solutions,
and then how to get the job done.
Like, we have a system to run, and I
need- Right … people that are going
to, you know, for whatever ex- past
experiences they might come with,
um, first comply with the process.
Like, you know, learn the
process, do the process.
Mm-hmm.
And then from that position of, like- Um,
you know, familiarity and participation,
then we're open to like ideas.
Absolutely.
Let's figure out how to do this better.
But-
Yeah.
Yeah
…
you don't want to hire people to just
come in with good ideas on the first
day and say, "Throw out your system and
use mine." Yeah.
Seriously.
Well, and that's why one of our
values that we have is humility.
Yeah.
You know, you gotta be
willing to be coached.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I think there's kind of a…
Maybe it's a catch-22 kinda that y- you
want a team player- Right … but then
especially in sales, 'cause you know,
I'm managing sales and so that's why
I think about, um, I kinda want people
that are a little more competitive.
You know?
Yeah.
That wanna win, and that is
kind of individual success.
And so finding someone who is
pro-team to, you know, is good at
working, you know, with others-
Right
…
but also wants to find individual success
and can be humble, um, I, I think one of
the best ways that we've built that up is
bringing people in from the ground level.
Like-
Yeah
…
w- uh, one of our guys,
Cameron, he's doing awesome.
He's a great, he's a great
producer for us, and, uh, he
started out, out as a technician.
Yeah.
And then we ended up bringing
him into sales, and I think
what that creates is loyalty.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, he, you know, now
he has maybe a l- a reasonable and
appropriate chip on his shoulder, right?
Because it, 'cause he's done well.
Um, but he's also loyal to the
company that gave him the shot at the
beginning- Yeah … and then brought
him up to, um, uh, you know, being
a full-time residential salesperson.
Um, so you know, kinda to what you
were saying, you know, before we
started recording about you gotta
develop these great team members, I,
I think I'd choose doing it that way
even though it's a longer play- Yeah
than bringing somebody in with bad
habits and ego because they did great
at this other company, and then they
try to work within our system, and then,
you know, they start having resistance.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that, uh- Every
top performer has coaches.
Like- Yeah.
Mm-hmm … top athletes
still have coaches.
They might be able to…
You know, they've performed at l- levels
that nobody else is gonna achieve.
You think of, like, Tom Bradys or
Tiger Woods- Right … or whatever.
Pick your sports hero, um, they
still have- get coaching, right?
Mm-hmm.
And they're open to it.
They're not… They don't look down
at people for trying to coach them.
They hire good ones.
They go out and-
Yeah … seek the best.
They seek that feedback, right?
Mm. CEOs have management coaches,
like, and leadership coaches.
Like, that's… High performers seek
out feedback and improvement, right?
Yeah.
So
what- That is almost universal
at the very top, right?
And so I mean, the, the trades I
think can- are littered with guys that
are very technically skilled, but-
Mm-hmm
take that technical skill and say,
like, "I don't need any feedback. I
know how to do this. Don't talk to me."
So what makes that
person different, right?
What makes the, uh… Is it… Just kinda
thinking off the top of my head here.
I mean, why would one person
wanna be so great that they're
willing to take feedback, and
the other person has this ego?
And it's almost like the ego-
Well, I think- … is the
r- the ego is the ceiling.
It's like if you have ego-
100% … then you're, that…
You're only gonna get so far.
I think you… I mean, you hit it on
the head with, uh, your core values.
Like, you have to have that humility.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And you have to realize that excellence
is a process, not a destination.
Like, it's- Mm … it's something
you have to practice every day and
do over and over and over again
through iterative improvement.
Yeah.
Right?
And constant self-evaluation,
honest self-evaluation.
You can't lie to yourself
and get better, right?
Right.
Um, and so- Yeah.
Finding people that can coach you and
know what they're, what they're talking
about is, is hugely influential Yeah.
Well, and I think, um, you know,
yeah, I go to a kind of, like
my spiritual life, you know.
Mm-hmm.
When- whenever I've tried to do
everything on my own and kind of s-
you know, guide my life, um, I kind
of end up realizing that I'm not the
best driver and I need to, you know-
Yeah … give it over to, to Christ.
Yeah.
You know, like I need, I need to go,
"You know what? I, I am not there." But,
but because I'm on a journey to really
trying to do something great, that will
innately… Or, or, you know, um, yeah,
in- in- innately I will end up realizing
I, I can't do it on my own, you know?
Yeah.
And so may- maybe the real difference
is, like, uh, that ego's a ceiling,
but the people who, like the Tiger
Woods, the Michael Jordans, the LeBron
James, they're like, "No, I wanna be
the best, and I've tried to get there
on my own, and I realized I couldn't."
Yeah.
And so maybe the people that resist
that and have the ego, they're
really actually not trying their
hardest to, to truly be their best.
I know we're getting a
little meta here, but- No.
Ab-
Yeah … I, I absolutely… And I'd
say, uh, so addressing those two areas
specifically, like I think the…
Like, I don't think anybody's gonna
go talk about, like Michael Jordan
and say he was a really humble guy
and didn't think that he was the best.
Right.
Like, I mean, there's… I would say, like
Tim Duncan maybe more, is more like that.
Like one of the better- Mm … best
players the NBA has ever
seen, but very low-key, right?
Michael Jordan was deservedly,
like- brash and, and- Yeah … uh,
authoritative about him, his skills
Mm-hmm
…
but had the, uh, targeted humility and
the self-awareness to say, like, "I'm here
and at this skill level because I practice
all the time, and I seek out coaching
and improvement any chance- Mm-hmm
I get." Right?
And then, uh, pivoting back to the
spiritual point you made, I mean,
like, to put it succinctly, like,
scripture says that, uh, you know,
"He who started a good work will be
faithful to complete it in us." Mm-hmm.
It doesn't say, "He who started
a good work in us- … is gonna
let you take it from here." Like-
Yeah
that's not how it works.
Yeah.
Right?
Like-
Uh-huh
…
our sanctification is through
the continued activity of
the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, so, um, just kinda on that, the
spirituality, I mean, what… You know, I
know you have a family- Mm-hmm … and so
that's a driver for you to be successful.
But, you know, how do you kinda, uh…
What drives you to, to your success,
and how does your spirituality and
your faith, uh, have an effect on,
you know, your purpose in business?
I mean, we're building, you know, all
these towers and kingdoms on Earth
that essentially, you know, won't,
won't, maybe won't matter that much,
you know, when we, when we die.
Oh,
no.
So, so- Not gonna matter at all.
Yeah.
So what is… You know, how do you
kinda reconcile your spiritual journey
with your, your career journey?
Yeah, I mean, biblically, I'm, I'm the
man that's providing for my family.
Like, the- Mm-hmm … that's m- one of my
charges is the headship of, of our family.
And I employ a lot of people that also
fill that role for their families.
Right.
Right?
And it's-
Mm
…
together we need to go
out and be excellent.
I mean, I think that- Being
excellent glorifies God-
Mm-hmm … just in and of itself.
Certainly being mediocre or poor doesn't-
Yeah
…
do anything for, for God, right?
Mm-hmm.
But witnessing through, like, excellence
is, is a valid way to, to witness, right?
Right.
We don't seek, or I don't
seek, uh, fame and riches for
the sake of fame and riches.
I think, uh, you know, designing an
excellent company, assembling an excellent
team is a way to, um, yeah, help these
men glorify God, uh, help- Mm … the
men and women provide for their families,
glorify God and, and, uh, and grow.
Um, you know, I'm fortunate to be in
a business right now that before I
even came in, it was like they'd, they
were, um, very open in their faith.
Yeah.
For a large part, like, the,
the, the team prays every
morning for safety and for- Oh,
wow
…
concerns before they go out and
into the world to serve customers.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm happy about being in control
of a business that, that had
that culture before I got there.
Yeah.
Well, and I mean, you know, especially
for roofers, I mean, I don't know
how it is for, you know, water well
services and plumbing- Mm … with
Flowcore, but, um, you know, they're…
Roofers at one point were ranked,
like, second lowest behind police
officers on people who were trusted.
Like, I- it's weird, but
firefighters were, like, number one.
Yeah.
Police officers were, like, at
the very bottom of the list.
I think it was, like, out
of 100, 150 professions, and
then roofers were, like, 149.
Um, and so, you know, not… I don't,
I don't like talking smack about other
people in the industry, but, you know,
it's no, it's no secret that you've
got roofers that will, uh, kind of take
advantage of the fact that people have
no idea what's going on on their roof,
you know?
I think that's the story with
every single service contract-
Yeah
…
discipline.
Mm-hmm.
And so, um, there are times when I
see, man, if, if we didn't have our
ethics and our morals, we could make
a whole bunch more money you know?
I mean, I think the right way
to look at it is because of your
ethics and your morals, you can
make a whole bunch more money.
Like-
Yeah,
right … you just need to- Mm-hmm
… it's a, it's a marketing message.
Sure.
Well, that, and, and, you
know, I, I think that-
And a sales training issue.
A- absolutely.
And, and I think when I say that
and I hear myself and I go, "Well,
uh, that's a short-term gain." Yeah.
Right?
That's short-term.
Okay, I can win this many more
jobs if I just- There are certain-
told them- Yeah … something else.
But what happens is, well, then somebody
finds out what's going on, one of
your clients finds out- Mm … and
then your reputation's damaged.
After your reputation's, your reputation's
damaged, then you're, then you're
really struggling at that point.
Yeah.
And so it is a, you know…
Like everything in scripture, you
know, it's, it's usually sacrificing
some type of temporary now pleasure
for delayed gratification, you know?
Yeah.
And so I think the same
is true in business.
You know, we have to be willing
to make the good ethical decisions
and, and, you know, trust that's
gonna pay off in the long run.
Yeah, I mean, just, just like taking
care of your people, taking care
of your customers is- What ends
up taking care of your business,
you have to have that reputation
that this business is trustworthy.
The only reason they're having
you out there is 'cause they don't
have the, the skills and time
and to do it themselves, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like,
I remember had a house in Austin for a
while and, um- The first time I, in my
life I had a, uh, like a real household
appliance break, it was my HVAC system.
Mm-hmm.
Got a leak in the refrigerant line, and
just the feeling of, like, frustration
that I didn't know how to fix this.
Yeah.
Not even… Like, it's not
like it's rocket science.
Mm-hmm.
But, like, I wouldn't even legally
allowed to fix it, 'cause I didn't
have an EPA card, and I couldn't
go buy refrigerant on my own.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And just knowing that this, like,
I can't do it is frustrating.
And as a customer, I'm talking to this
HVAC technician that knows how and
can solve this problem for me, and
I'm frustrated that I can't do it.
As, you know, it's my personality.
There's customers that don't
have a first clue how their
systems are working or, you know-
Right
…
what do, you know, that, that there
isn't even a copper line going from
their, you know, their inside unit to
the outside unit on their HVAC system.
Mm-hmm.
They don't know.
Yeah.
Right?
So-
Yeah
…
to them, it's just a
big mist of confusion.
Mm-hmm.
And they're on their heels,
'cause they've got a problem.
It's Texas in the summer, and it's
hot, and they need air conditioning.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, or, you know, or
they're, they're at home.
They know there's this hole in the
ground where the water comes out.
They don't know what's down there-
Right … how it gets, how the,
you know, how the water gets up.
Um, but they- But they need it fixed
… they know they can't take a shower.
They can't fill- Yeah.
… a pot, right?
Yeah.
They- They can't wash their hands.
They can't flush the toilet.
It's like, that's a problem.
Yeah.
Um, and they need it fixed.
Mm-hmm.
And it, uh, in the service industry,
you have to approach that with the right
kind of humility and professionalism.
Right?
You can't be arrogant- Mm-hmm
… 'cause like you, that's how you
convince people that you're just
trying to take advantage of them.
Right.
And you also have to pr- have the
professionalism that shows them that
we do this all day and every day.
Like, I know you don't have a
contractor in your home except for
maybe once, twice a year maybe.
Right.
Right?
We're in a, you know, hundreds-
Yeah … thousands of homes a year.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
This is normal for us.
We're professionals at it, and we're
going to take good care of you.
But you need to be proactive
about communicating that through
your behavior, through- Right
your words.
Right?
Through how you talk about problems,
how you- Mm-hmm … explain things,
your metaphors or, and whatever that
you're using to talk to a customer.
Being professional in practice is what
communicates to them that this is a
professional and I'm in good hands, and
I don't need to be… My, am I getting
ripped off antenna doesn't need to go up.
My-
Right
…
you know, is, uh, does this guy
actually know what he's doing, or
am I just buying somebody… I might
have to pay this guy a bunch of money
to think he fixed it and then call
somebody else out when it breaks again.
Like-
Right.
Yeah
…
you've gotta put all those fears-
Mm-hmm
…
away from them.
You've gotta take care of them upfront.
And so, and that, that really is
when you have to build, build that
value, you know- Right … before you
present the price, all that stuff.
So in the sales process for Flowcore,
I mean, I know right now we're kinda
struggling, trying to implement some-
Mm-hmm … hard and fast rules, what
we're gonna do, what we're not gonna do.
Um, you know, do you have a… Are you
sticking pretty strictly to- uh, that,
you know, that sales process in terms of,
you know, uh, we- we're not- Yeah … you
know, q- qualifying a buyer like that
first off and, you know, giving bids
to qualified buyers or, you know, or,
or, giving bids to unqualified buyers.
Um-
So I, I try and…
My approach to whether or not a
buyer is or is not qualified is just
give them the options and let them
tell you what they can afford to do.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
We shouldn't, as professional salespeople
and, you know, service technicians,
shouldn't be making that decision in
the house before the customer does.
Gotcha.
It'd be like going to a restaurant
and, you know, walking in and the
re- the waiter saying, "Uh, you
know what? Here's the top third of
the wine list. Why don't you, why
don't you pick one of those?" Right?
Yeah.
Let them order.
Right?
Um-
Yeah, I guess when I, when I think
about it, um, some specific instances
come to mind with what's happened
on my team recently, you know?
Yeah.
Um, you got people that are kinda
tire kicking or they're just looking
for a price or, you know, they're
looking for- Oh, certainly … they're
looking for the cheapest thing.
Um, you know, and, and one of the
questions- They only- … I always want
them to ask- Yeah … is, "Hey, what's
your timeframe for making a decision
on this project?" And if someone says,
"Well, you know, uh, I don't know, I
might, might do it next year or this
year," it's like, okay, uh, how much-
So you can, you can- … how much
time am I gonna-
pre-screen for that.
Right.
Like, you can pre-screen for
tire filter, tire kickers.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, um, a service fee is a, like
a, you know, a visitation or an
estimate fee is a good way to do that.
And you get people that if they're
not willing to pay 80 bucks to have
you come out and get an, an estimate,
they're probably not gonna buy a roof.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Um, in my business, you know, the, if
they're not gonna pay us to go out,
show up and troubleshoot the issue,
they're probably just kicking the tires.
Gotcha.
Um, but even then, like, uh, you
should still have a professional
presentation even if they are-
Mm-hmm … kicking the tires, right?
And you can, you can ask straight up,
like, "If we come up with a solution
today, are you willing to proceed?"
Or just be honest with them.
Get them to say yes or no.
Right.
If they say like, "Oh, you know, I kinda
wanna think about it," that's fine.
Mm-hmm.
Adjust what you're going to, to
do in the home appropriately.
Right.
But yeah, I mean, the, there's gonna
be tire kickers and there are gonna
be people that wanna take care of it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you can set up some, some
measures to, to thoughtfully get
in front of the right people.
Right.
Yeah, and then the other problem that
kind of comes up after that step is
just in follow-up, you know, where-
Yeah … you know, roofing, I don't know
how it is for, for your services, but it's
usually not a one-call close, you know?
Yeah.
It's a lot of money.
Usually, it's unexpected to have a
leak- Mm … that all of a sudden came,
came out of their ceiling, you know?
And so they're like, "Oh,
man. Okay. $20,000. I mean,
that's, that's a lot." Yeah.
"It's not really what I expected."
And, and we found out that a lot of
homeowners don't have that money just
laying around, the vast majority of them.
Yeah.
Or that's all they have.
And so, um, you know, one thing that
I am trying to get ingrained into our
pro- our process is always scheduling
a meeting from the last meeting.
And in that way, we kind of
take control of the process.
Like, I was talking to my dad.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I was talking to my dad the other
day and, you know, we can't be so passive.
We're like, "Okay, yeah, whenever
you want. Whenever you want, give
us a call back. Like, we'll be here
for you." Um, rather look at it like
we're a fitness coach, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And someone says, "Hey, you know,
I wanna lose 30 pounds, you know?
C- can you help me?" And we go, "Yeah,
I'll help you." And we call you every
day to check if you're in the gym and
check if you're eating the right stuff.
Like, someone said they have a desire,
they want to replace their roof.
Yeah.
And if we let them, just like a trainer
would let their client, um, off the
hook, if we let them off the hook,
well, then we didn't do a very good
job of helping them fix their issue.
Right.
Because we know they don't wanna
sit there for three months with this
project hanging over their head if
they know they need to get it done.
So taking control of that process,
saying, "Hey, you know…" A-
always making sure there's a meeting
scheduled from the previous meeting
and not leaving things open-ended-
Yeah
…
for me to have to get on the phone and
get back ahold of them or for them to
just call me whenever they're ready.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, one way to…
Am I allowed to say the F-word on here?
Financing.
Oh, whoa . I thought it was finance.
Yeah,
fi- yeah.
So I mean, financing is a great
way to, um, to handle that.
You're right.
Most customers, most homeowners don't
have, like, $50,000 laying around,
and if they did, they probably
don't want to spend it on a roof.
Right.
Nor do they want to spend money
on getting their, their water
pump fixed for their well.
Mm-hmm.
But they really wanna be able to
take showers in the morning, right?
Right.
And, like, keeping the water off
of you when you're laying down at
night is one of the fundamental,
like-
Yeah … fun- like, the base layer- Yeah
of, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Hierarchy of needs, yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Stay out of the rain.
Uh-huh.
Um, so very clearly, it's
a, it's a base need, right?
Yeah.
It's not a, it's not a nice-to-have.
It's like, you have to keep the water out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so being able to help
them afford it is so critical.
Right.
Um, you know, it's not a- You know,
the, did I wish Americans didn't have
as much consumer debt as we have?
Sure.
Right.
Yeah.
Uh,
but that does, that's not gonna
fix the hole in your roof.
Sure.
That's not gonna get you water so
you can take a shower in the morning.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Like, w- it, the, these are the tools that
we have to help you solve your problem-
Mm-hmm
…
today, and, you know, the,
it's, it's very effective.
It's very helpful.
Yeah.
Like, there's plenty
of options that are…
Yeah, and that's what, and
we're, we've moved towards that.
I mean, we're- Yeah … putting,
we're putting financing, or we call it
low monthly payment options- Mm-hmm.
Sure … on, on all of our proposals
now, uh, to give people that visual of
they see, oh, $20,000 or $235 a month.
Right.
Like, yeah, that's awesome.
And, and I think it's tough because
we, you know, we know they know that
they're end up, they're gonna end up
paying over time- Yeah … double for
whatever the initial cost is, but, you
know, we think of financing as this kind
of almost necessary evil in some ways.
But what it, but it, but
it- I mean, I wouldn't even
call it evil.
Like, it's, it's- Yeah … it's
just a financial tool.
Sure.
Um, and I mean, it, yeah,
I, I don't wanna go down the
rabbit hole too much, but yeah.
Yeah.
People can abuse debt- Sure … and
then get themselves in trouble, but-
Mm-hmm
…
that's debt for, like, jet skis
or, you know, vacations or stuff
that you don't really need to have.
Right.
When it's the services that we offer
that are kind of, like, very base needs-
Mm-hmm
…
like, that's not an abusive debt.
That's where you should be using it.
And if you've, if you've abused it
other places- That's unfortunate, but-
Yeah.
Well, and I think for me, I have, uh,
probably an ingrained bias because when
I was gradu- I graduated college- Mm-hmm
I got hired to sell pools.
Yeah.
It was called Blue World Pools.
I don't care, I'll say the company
name- Yeah … 'cause it was terrible.
Um, and they had this trainer, they put
me up at a hotel, had this trainer, and
the whole thing was about advertising
a $299 above ground pool, and then you
get into the home, and he says, "You
stay there for as long as it takes,"
and you go through your scripts- Yeah
and essentially you're trying
to sell them a 12, 15 or $17,000
above ground pool system.
Yeah.
And, you know, he even talks about
the people like, "Oh, they're salt of
the, they're salt of the earth people,
you know. They're good people. You
know, some people will kick you out
of their home, but, but these people,
they're, they're good people, you know?"
And, and- Yeah … uh, and, and so
their whole model was signing people
up for financing that can't afford
it, and then selling those loans
to somebody else down the road.
Yeah.
And so, like, I, you know, we have
these ingrained- They certainly
are predatory.
Yeah.
But there's predatory contractors, right?
No,
absolutely, and I…
Yeah.
There's roofers that'll sell
a roof that you don't need.
There's water well pump services- Right
… that'll recommend changing a pump that-
Mm-hmm … is running just fine, right?
There's HVAC technicians that'll
go knock a hole in your refrigerant
line and say, "Oh, you got a leak."
Yeah.
Right?
Right.
No, abs- absolutely.
That's unscrupulous on a different,
in, you know, in a different way.
Yeah.
That's not a indictment against financing
or an indictment against contractors,
it's an indictment against people.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And, you know, I, I tell that
story because I think it's just,
uh, one of those things where
we have human experiences- Yeah
and, and they ingrain
us in a way of thinking.
So I've had to kind of unlearn these,
the negatives- Yeah … the, to reframe
my opinion on financing in general.
Yeah.
But it's not, and it's, you know, you're
right, I shouldn't say necessary evil.
I should say it's appropriate
sometimes for- Financial
tool … the right situation.
Yeah.
It's, it's a financial tool.
So yeah, you know, changing that frame
of reference to a more appropriate
perspective is- Yeah … is good in that.
Um, yeah.
So, um, I really wanted to ask you, well,
you know, first off, you, o- on your,
uh, LinkedIn, I think your profile, it
says you have this Lean Six Sigma in JIT.
You know?
And I was like, I don't know,
I don't- Does it still say
Lean Six Sigma on there?
It does.
Okay.
And I was like, I was like, "Man, I
don't know if that's from the Navy
or if that's a business." Like, it
sound- I, so- It almost sounds like
a, like a move or something, you know?
It
is a, uh… Yeah, Lean Six Sigma, man.
That was a buzzword.
Uh, I mean, don't, don't get me wrong,
vali- very valid business principles,
and I still use them to this day.
Mm-hmm.
I signed up for, um, when I was getting
out of the Navy, they, uh, the command
that I was at had a lot of civilians
and stuff, and it was kind of a, it was
in the acquisitions part- Mm … of the
Navy, so buying new types of equipment.
Um, right?
If we're gonna buy a new airplane, we need
to test it and, you know, do the interface
with the civilian world a lot more.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I signed up to take this
class just to put it on my resume.
Um- And so I did the, the green belt
there, and then I'd go to work at
General Motors, and they actually
required everybody at my level to
have a, uh, a Six Sigma black belt.
Oh, wow.
Which is like a credentialing.
Sounds,
sounds
dangerous.
Don't look down.
Don't… Dangerous,
that's a good word for it.
Yeah.
Um, it's just a… Yeah, it's
just a way to kind of grade how
much, uh, responsibility you have
on these projects, these- Sure.
Um, but the principles that it teaches
you to, like, look for what is truly
value creative or wasteful is- Mm-hmm
uh, important.
Um- Okay … like the seven forms of waste
from the lean, uh, lean principles, the,
um, the, the data focus and diligence that
you put in to, like, a Six Sigma design.
Like, the concept of Six Sigma-
Okay … is that you're supposed
to have six standard deviations of,
uh, of s- um, process control in, in
the work that you're doing so that,
like, errors are s- extremely rare.
I think that's- Gotcha.
Okay.
I want to say that that's also, like,
five, like 99.999- Mm … percent
effective or, or I think.
Wow.
It's been a while since I've looked at-
Yeah, no, I hear you … the standard
deviations and the like and the math.
But the purpose is to, um, be thoughtful
about how you're designing, uh- I
mean, whether it's airplanes or cars or
office processes, such that you aren't
being wasteful with people's time.
Gotcha.
Well, and that's what the JIT
stands for, just in time, right?
Yes.
And that's, like, not having a whole
bunch of inventory, you know- Yeah,
like in automotive … you, yeah.
Uh, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, for us, like-
Yeah
…
you know, that, that's how we operate.
We… But it's tough, because
you end up having excess, and
then where do you put that?
And it's like- Right … what's
your proc- I mean, just that simple
process of, well, you know, we're
doing a custom job on a home, right?
Right.
There's gonna be excess, gonna
be waste, leftover material.
What's the process for getting that back
to where it needs to go or storing it or
using it on a repair later on the road?
Yeah.
But, you know, this idea of getting all
your material to deliver on a product
or service install just in time- Yeah
… and that reducing a lot of, of waste.
Sometimes we're like, "Hey, if there's
leftover, just throw it away." Like, that
like, that's, that's the
best use of our time.
Well, honestly, like, if there's,
if there's leftover parts, don't…
Like, customers don't want your
left- somebody else's leftovers.
Right.
Like, I, I've had a, a, um… There was
a practice in a business I was running
where, uh, if, say, like, an, an expensive
piece of tank equipment, say, a water
filter, had the head unit fail, they'd go
back to the shop, grab a head unit off of
one of our inventory water filters, and go
install just the head unit so they- Yeah
could do a cheaper repair, right?
But you're just saying that the
next guy gets a stepped-on, like,
half-broken- Mm-hmm … piece of gear.
Like-
Right
…
we sell new stuff to, to our customers,
not, not the stepped-on stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Like, that's not, that's
not good for our business.
That's not good for our customers.
Right.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and we don't have any invent-
we don't wanna store any inventory.
We- Yeah … 'cause we've done it
before where we, we tried to order
preemptively during COVID, because
there was so much, you know- Yeah,
that was a- … supply chain issues.
Yeah.
It was tough.
And we have in the warehouse, I mean,
we still have stacks of, of ISO.
It's all protected and wrapped
up, and we can- Yeah … use it.
I mean, it's fine, but, uh, it
definitely gets in the way, you know?
Yeah.
And then what does that affect?
Well, okay, how do we- You could use
that cash for something else.
We could, yeah, we could
use it for something else.
I mean, still, you know, even
just staging other, staging other
projects in the warehouse- Mm
you know, getting ready.
You know, having just a clean atmosphere.
Um, so I totally get that concept of
eliminating all that waste- Yeah … uh,
'cause it just frees up your mental
space and then people to do what
they need to be doing, you know- Yeah
… not, not cleaning up all the time.
I mean, I'd say, like, the, the lean
principles and Six Sigma concept
is, uh- kind of table stakes for
anybody running a small business.
Mm-hmm.
If you haven't, if you've no idea what
I s- what I'm talking about when I
say the seven forms of waste, just at
least go find an infographic on that.
Gotcha.
Right?
If you have no idea what Six
Sigma like really means, like
go find an infographic on that.
Get that base level of knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
I'm
not saying you gotta read
every book about it out there.
Yeah.
And, uh, I think the certification
ecosystem behind it, it's
a, gets a little bit silly.
But- Yeah … um, it is helpful
to communicate to a team,
like, "This matters to us."
Mm-hmm.
Come… Like learn it
and, and practice it.
Yeah.
So I wanna go back to, you were
talking about starting this
company in New York City, right?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, you got a handful of guys, and
you said you were very data-driven.
Yeah.
So, you know, what are those KPIs
you're looking at from a young company?
If there's any entrepreneurs
out there that are wanting
to start their own business-
Mm-hmm
…
what did y'all look at upfront to set
yourself up for success down the road?
Yeah, I mean, at a, at a fundamental
level with that, in a, in a, in a
venture-backed startup- Um, the KPI
world is a little bit of a, a loony bin.
Like it's not- Mm-hmm … strict
financial performance, right?
They'll… Their investors
will accept a lot.
That's kind of the game is we will
accept a loss until you've s- get into,
gotten to sufficient scale that you
don't need to be loss-making anymore.
Right.
Um, for us, our… I'd say the KPI
that I was mostly concerned with,
with all the work that I would do,
is how fast can we close a loan?
It was a mortgage startup.
Mm-hmm.
I think I said that.
Yeah.
Um, was how fast can we go from
loan application to loan funded?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and in the, the days of, you
know, 2019, 2020, 2021, uh, a lot
of people were moving out of urban
areas and high net worth areas- Mm-hmm
you know, concentrated wealth areas
out into lower concentration of wealth
and could throw cash around, right?
So your standard American home
buyer, uh, was having to compete
with a lot of cash offers.
The real estate market was flying,
like shooting through the roof, right?
Right.
So it was really hard for a normal
everyday American to go buy a house,
to be competitive when- Mm-hmm
you know, uh, you know, home buyer
A has cash and say, "I can buy this
house 10 days from now. Let's go."
Right.
Home buyer B says, "I can buy
this house, but it has to pass
my bank's, like appraisal- Yeah.
… value in a world where like the
s- so sales prices are way higher
than- Mm-hmm … um, like there's
a lot of appraisal risk in those.
And then, uh, and I've gotta make
sure that I can clear this debt,
right, on my, my debt to income ratio.
I've got the cash to close.
Like there's a bunch of questions, right?
So offering the same price, a seller wants
to take cash offer over financed offer.
Yeah.
And our fundamental like, product offering
in the mortgage space was we are so
confident that we're going to close this
mortgage and buy this house that the
business that I was running, uh, we're
just gonna go ahead and make the offer
ourselves So my business is gonna buy this
house in 10 days, and I'm gonna put- Hmm
a special contract provision on here that
says, "If I get my mortgage ready for
my client in time, I have the right to
just assign the, the purchase contract to
them, and they buy it with a mortgage."
Gotcha.
So to the seller, there's no risk anymore.
Right.
There's no, like, is this
mortgage gonna close risk.
Hmm.
If the mortgage doesn't close,
the company's still on the
hook to buy the, buy the house.
Wow.
I'm selling this house for
that price on that timeline.
Um-
So how often would that
condition come up within-
I, I think we bought maybe three
or four homes in, uh, in the
four or five years I was there.
Uh, not a lot.
So you had… But you… So you were
doing some pretty due diligence to
make sure that those transactions were
gonna go through.
Well, we were aggressively
operationally streamlining the
mortgage origination process.
Okay.
Right.
Right?
Right.
Right.
Being very focused and diligent
about making sure that we could
close a mortgage on time, right?
Hmm.
And taking that waste out
of, uh, mortgage origination.
Hmm.
I mean, going back to Lean
Six Sigma principles, right?
We're looking for idle time in, in,
you know, areas where… Like, touch
time is a, is another KPI would
be something I'd, I'd focus on.
Hmm.
Like, how much time is a, an actual
employee of my business spending
thinking about or processing
your mortgage application?
Hmm.
And if it's not a lot, if in reality
it's just number 17 in their backlog of,
you know, 25 loans to work on that day,
and most of what is going to, you know,
that loan's activity is just gonna be
ticking its way to 17, 16, 15, 14, you
know, all the way down to the number
one position, and then finally- Right
it gets looked at for 10 minutes,
a decision gets made, and it gets
forwarded to somebody else's, and
lands 43 in their backlog, right?
Hmm.
Like, the, and the reality of the
mortgage business is that's most
of the process of making a loan.
Right.
Is
it's just sitting in queue.
Yeah.
So you're s- you're talking a lot
about, you know, speed, time, right?
I mean, right now- Right … in,
in the world we live in, it's
like time is everything, you know?
Get- getting to a client quickly,
you know, getting- Yeah … through
the process of, you know, getting
this loan approved or- Mm-hmm … you
know, even getting to someone's
house and, you know, doing plumbing
and water well services or roofing.
So do you think that that principle
of speed and, and time h- is kinda
what you focus on now as well?
Yeah.
Uh, to some degree.
Like, it, the, um-
You try and set up your service
technicians to be able to solve
90% of the problems without
having to leave the house.
Right.
Okay.
So there's not really a, um-
Hmm
…
a major time constraint there.
Gotcha.
The, um, it's certainly not great if you
have to say, you know, "I have to go to
the shop or to a, a supply house to go
buy that water heater or that- Mm … you
know, that pump- Mm-hmm … that you need.
Um, but that's just a necessary.
You can't carry everything on the truck.
Right.
It's just required.
Um, what you certainly don't wanna
do, and which I see a lot of in, uh,
the more budget tier contractors that
say, "We're gonna come out tomorrow
and get halfway started on this job,
and I've already booked, you know,
the day after and the day after that
with another client, so, you know- Mm
then I'll come out after them
and finish the rest of it." Like-
Right
…
that's telling this customer, like,, "You
matter only to me to get started, but
you don't really matter when I close this
work, 'cause I'm working nonstop anyway-
Mm-hmm … and you're just, like, uh,
you're just a priority I'm juggling."
Right.
Right?
You wanna be with that customer,
solving that customer's problem
until that customer's problems are
solved and they're happy about it.
And then you take, you come out of
that house, and then you can start
worrying about, like, what's the
re- what else is going on, right?
Mm-hmm.
What other jobs do I have today?
Who had to get kicked to tomorrow
because I spent too long there?
When you're in that customer's house,
they deserve and expect your undivided
attention to solve their problems,
and if you're not giving them that,
you're not giving them good service.
Right.
And I think that goes, you know, kind
of plays into the truth of the very
best lead out there is a referral.
Right.
Right?
I mean- Yeah … I mean,
would you agree with that?
I mean, 'cause it, I mean, I know in
roofing, I think it's, like, like 80% of
referrals, uh, end up closing as a job-
Yeah
…
rather than someone who did a whole
bunch of research on Google or, you
know, picked, got three guys off the
top Google search to come take a look.
I would say I, I agree that the
best, uh, highest e- you know,
easiest to close is a referral.
Mm-hmm.
How, the only caveat is that, uh,
with that, or hesitance you might
hear in my voice, is that referrals
aren't a way to grow a business.
Okay.
Interesting.
Like, at the end of the day, you're going
to have to find new customers- Mm-hmm
that you advertise to.
Hmm.
Right?
Yeah.
Or that you, you know, you throw
up a billboard and they call you.
You're going to have to impress
somebody from a cold start.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
You just can't grow any sort
of serious business on the
back of nothing but referrals.
Gotcha.
That'll be fine for driving, like, a
one-man shop or something like that.
Sure.
But that's not going to provide
for families at the scale that
you and I are trying to do.
Right.
Right?
Right.
But yeah, 'cause I guess, you know,
what, what is the, what is the falloff?
What is the ratio if, you know, if
you have 10 clients, you know, c- what
can you, how many referrals can you
reasonably expect from 10 clients?
Right.
You know?
I- is it m- maybe at best
it's self-sustaining, right?
Right.
Like, from those, from those 10,
you get one every, you get one.
Mm-hmm.
Then you get one, and you get … And
candidly- You know, you got, you, you
have to get two referrals from a client-
Yeah … for, in order for that to
start having any exponential effect.
And candidly, it's
a, it makes for not good customer service.
Yeah.
'
Cause you're hitting
softballs all the time.
You're not actually having- Right … to
be good at your job- Right … at
the customer service side of the job.
You're getting these softballs, "Hey,
so and so said you're really great
at this. I'd love to you guys to
help build my roof, change my pump."
Right.
Um, "Absolutely, man. Love to do that."
But I didn't have to, like, communicate
my v- my value or convince them that
I had the right technical solution.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't have to do really any of the core
skills of a, a home services business.
Right.
I just, I got the layup, right?
Yeah.
No,
that's
true.
If you're trying to win a game by,
you know, nothing but layups or,
like, the easy layups in space, like-
It doesn't make you hard.
It doesn't, doesn't, doesn't
strengthen- Yeah, you're not
gonna be a competitive player.
You're not gonna
win … doesn't strengthen you.
Yeah, so I mean, we, we've done
historically the, you know,
kind of the basic stuff, right?
Right.
SEO, um, you know, buying, you know,
bidding on keywords, that kind of thing.
What we've seen recently is we've gotten,
like, quite a few leads now coming
through with, uh, ChatGPT, Perplexity.
Yeah.
You know, these AI softwares that
are, uh, recommending people.
So this is so new and,
you know, for me at least.
Yeah.
It's not new to everybody.
I mean, it's been around, but,
uh, I think I saw some stat, it
was, like, 48% of people, uh, are
searching for products through, uh,
these AI- Yeah … language models.
So how is that playing into your
strategy with Flowcore on getting-
Yeah
leads?
So I mean, I'm not a, I
am not a marketing expert.
Mm-hmm.
I kind of take the tack of, I forget
who said it, but, like, 50% of the
money I spend on marketing is wasted,
I just don't know which 50% it is.
Uh,
God, that, that really hits me
right, right in the heart, man.
Well, I mean, I think- That's so true
… e- but even a marketing agent has to-
like, admit that that is, that's true.
Like-
Yeah
…
there's going to be, you know, Google
impressions that I buy for, that
I pay for and, and, and purchase
that are not gonna convert, right?
Mm-hmm.
And the whole idea of, like,
running tests is we want to see what
works, is a tacit admission that
not everything is going to work.
Yeah.
Period.
Yeah.
Right?
But you gotta play the game and
win the game in order to, in order
to find g- business and grow.
Yeah.
Right?
How do you,
how do you
kind of- But to your
question about AI, right?
Sure.
Um, again, taking care of customers,
building that reputation, getting
maybe not the in… like, the word
of mouth referrals, but, you know,
having customers talk about you
on Reddit, on Facebook, on- Mm-hmm
like, a lot of how these models are
training themselves is scouring, you know,
the public discourse about things, right?
And if you have documentation of your,
of your business being helpful to
people and doing the right repairs and
treating people honestly and they talk
about it, that's how it comes back.
And that's… I mean, Google tries to
coerce it through their, their business
profiles and their Google reviews.
Like, um, and, you know,
they, we play a game there.
Uh- Right … a lot of, uh, if you look
at the- You know, like Gemini, when you
do like a Google search and it gives you
the AI summary at the top Mm-hmm … I
can't tell you how many of those summaries
have like a Reddit link in it, and Reddit
was never a source of like- Oh, wow
you know, a source of truth where like,
yeah, I'm definitely- Yeah … gonna find
the right answer on Reddit of all places.
Wow.
But AI's looking there, and there's-
Huh … anecdote after anecdote of,
uh, you know, a small town contractor,
um, creating a Reddit account for their
business and just going on Reddit and
just answering questions, you know?
Wow.
"
My water heater started
making a funny tick.
What's going on?" Like, "Oh, it might
be this, that or the other thing."
Not a, "Give us a call, we'll come
out and fix it" post- Right … but
just a, "Hey, look into this."
Hmm.
Or, you know, plumber in, uh,
Spokane, Washington is answering on a
general, like R Plumbing or whatever-
Yeah
to somebody in Kansas City saying,
"Hey- Mm … you know, try finding a
plumber that can look into that for you."
Wow.
Very obviously not a, you know,
a, an ask for their business.
It's just genuine being helpful.
Hmm.
Right?
And when you build up that kind
of… I mean, Reddit calls it karma
'cause they measure it that way,
like, you know, up votes and whatnot.
Right.
But I mean, basically ChatGPT
is doing the same thing.
It's just looking for
the general sentiment.
Like, people said that that was helpful
on Reddit- Mm … so it must be helpful.
Yeah.
When somebody asks me this question
on Google or in a ChatGPT prompt-
Yeah
…
that comes back and I, I recommend it.
Well, it seems like, um, you know, uh,
if you're a lone wolf or even if you're
a small business and you don't have,
you know, a decent amount of money going
towards its marketing, how do you keep up?
Because-
You don't
…
the, it, it's not like you set it,
you… I mean, marketing's never really
been a set it and forget it, but now
it's really not a set it and forget it.
Yeah.
The target feels like
it's constantly moving.
It is.
I mean, and that's the, the perennial
frustration with marketing, right?
Like, every operator wants marketing,
the, the top of funnel to just be stable-
Yeah
and to set it and forget it so they
can focus on operating their business.
Mm-hmm.
But, um, at its core level, the only
reason a home services business should
exist is because you can market.
Like-
Right
…
people can call a journeyman plumber
out to fix their- their problem.
Mm-hmm.
Like you can call out an
individual skilled tradesperson
to go fix your problem for you.
Yeah.
But the idea of like having a business
and actually throwing our lots in
together is that I can take a little
bit of the workload off of the
technician, and I can create a team that
customers want o- over other teams or
other, over other individuals, right?
Mm-hmm.
And if you're not getting that message
out there with marketing, you're not- Yeah
doing half the job.
Yeah.
Yeah, and, you know, I, and
w- what's the regulation like
with the plumbing, plumbing?
I mean, is, there's, are there
master plumbers, or, like, there's
certification- Yeah … levels?
There's, yeah- Right … general,
I mean, it's, it's a typical
trade certification level.
Mm-hmm.
You have a, an apprenticeship-
Right
uh, phase.
You have a journeyman phase,
and you have a master-
Mm-hmm
…
plumbing license.
And to be a, a plumbing
contractor, you have to have the,
a master license, a responsible-
Yeah … master plumber designation.
Um-
Well, I, I don't wanna sit
here and complain, right?
Mm. But
There's nothing like that in roofing?
No.
Yeah.
There's nothing.
And, and so we talk about, you know,
marketing spend and all these things
and, you know, with storm damage in
Dallas, we have tons of, of roofers
that will flood here even- Yeah … with
the sto- storms we had recently.
And so one of our big challenges
is when, when marketing costs go
up, right, like they have been-
Yeah
I mean, our, our, you know, cost per
click on Google Ad, just for one exam-
example, is just, it's just crazy.
I mean, we lose money on repairs, right?
I mean, we have to get replacements
if we're gonna make money on, on
a- Yeah … on an internet lead.
Um, luckily, we do get referrals.
We have other avenues we go
through, so w- we're he- we're fine.
But, um, but then we have these
other contractors that have…
there's no certification.
You know, we do things like people
think, "Well, your overhead's too
high. You have overhead." It's like,
well, what comes with overhead is,
you know, uh, an office staff, right?
Uh, we pay- Yeah … our people well.
I mean, you can get ahold of us.
You can come find us.
Um, our, our communication
system, we invest into those.
We invest into training so that we know
we're gonna put on a proper product.
But at the end of the day, nobody has
to do any of these things, and so we-
Yeah … end up getting into price,
we get into price competition all the
time, and it makes me think, "Well,
we've gotta do something incredible on
the front end of our sales process to
blow people away, to build the value,"
otherwise we just become a commodity.
Yeah.
How, how do we get out of that?
Yeah.
You cannot talk about
yourself like a commodity.
Yeah.
Period.
Right.
You ha- your, your technicians
and your salespeople need to
believe that in their core.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Um, I mean, there's, there's a lot
to unpack in, in what you said.
Oh, yeah, right.
But like the, uh, like from the marketing
perspective, you're right, marketing's
just gonna get more and more expensive,
and if you're not gonna be honest about
that and try to figure out how to afford
it, you're not gonna be able to succeed.
Yeah.
Right?
And then on the, the commodity
part, like, a roof is now what,
a 40, 50, 100-year decision?
Like, how long are roofs
lasting these days?
Well, there's different ones.
So we have roofs that are the
typical asphalt roofs- Yeah … and
they might last, at the very low
end, 15, at the very high end of
asphalt designer, maybe 25, right?
Yeah.
Um, they're very susceptible to hail even
though they might have a Class 4 rating-
Right … which means they have some
tests with the steel ball, and it passes.
But now there's the synthetics, and so
the synthetic shingles, you know, they
will last 50, 50 years, maybe even longer.
Um, but, you know, they're
at a higher price point.
I mean, it can be- Sure … it
can be double what you might
pay for an asphalt shingle.
Um, but, you know, they're,
they've actually now recently
passed, um, severe hail- Tests.
So they shoot like an ice cannon at 160
miles an hour at these shingles and they
pass, you know, they don't get damaged.
So- Makes me want
to get back into the test world again.
It's, I mean, it's cool and we have an ice
ca- Yeah … we have an ice cannon too.
Oh,
do you?
But yeah, we have one, but it
doesn't go that fast, right?
Okay.
These are real professional tests
that, uh- Yeah … that they do.
Um, so it can be a 20-year
product if it's asphalt.
If it's these synthetics
that are coming out- Yeah
I mean, 50 years and, and the
synthetics, you know, at a 30 square
roof, it might cost you, you know, uh,
$20,000, uh, for asphalt shingle and
maybe- Yeah … 45 for the synthetics.
I guarantee you none of your customers
want to make a 50-year decision on
the, on the back of like a, you're,
with a fly-by-night contractor.
Right.
Right?
And so y- if they're looking at you as
a commodity, that is, uh, it's a, it's
a failure on the, on the salesperson's-
Mm-hmm
…
uh, plate to talk about the value
that they're actually selling.
Hmm.
Right?
Selling like, I mean, one of
the Nobody buys a, a phone,
right, on what is the cheapest.
Everybody has expensive
smartphones, and nobody's running
around with a Jitterbug, right?
Right.
People avoid the cheapest
things all the time.
Mm-hmm.
Nobody buys the cheapest
bottle on the wine list, right?
Nobody buys… People nev-
nobody buys the cheapest thing.
Right.
Right?
Not a lot of people buy
the most expensive thing.
Mm-hmm.
But people see value in, in being there
in the sweet spot- Yeah … in the middle.
Um, and so you have to just… You
have to learn how, what it's, it means
to differentiate yourself, right?
To distinguish yourself on, uh,
on service, on dependability,
on long-lasting reputation.
One of my competitors at a previous
business would sell a mini-split
system installed for, I think it was,
uh… It was about $350 more than the
actual equipment cost to buy at the
same, like, the only, uh, distributor-
Mm-hmm
uh, that was selling
them in the area, right?
So I knew exactly what he was buying
the equipment for, and I knew that
he was only clearing about 350 bucks.
Yeah.
And he would go do two a day,
right, to install these systems.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, what I was telling
the, my salespeople were like,
"Oh, how can we compete with that?
It's so cheap." And I was like-
Right
… "
Don't." Like- … if you try to
compete with that, you're gonna lose.
Yeah,
yeah.
You should not be competing on price.
What you should be saying is, like, "This
guy does not have time to take a day off.
If he screws up, he does not have
time to come fix your house because
he can't eat at the end of the week.
He, at the end of the week, he can't
make rent if he's not making that
$350 at every job twice a day."
Mm-hmm.
Period.
Yeah, that's good.
He is making himself a
slave to that op tempo-
Mm
…
and that $350 a day, and
just living hand-to-mouth.
He cannot build a business
like that, which means he
cannot be a reputable supplier.
He can't come fix it.
Right.
If he does a crap job, he doesn't even
have time to, like, start again, right?
He doesn't have time to fix
things while he's on the job.
He's gotta keep going.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And so if- If y- your salespeople
need to have that awareness that,
"That's not how we do business here.
We do business the right way.
If we see a problem,
we will fix it," right?
"If you have a problem with our
installation after we leave,
we'll come back and fix it."
Yeah.
Right?
We stand by our work.
That needs to mean something, and you, and
you have to be able to communicate that
to customers in a way that's meaningful.
Yeah.
No, I mean, and that, that takes
repetition and practice and- Right
you know, sales trainings and whatever
to, to get that vernacular and, and the
way we communicate that in our head.
Right.
And, um, yeah, it's like we have…
We know we have the value, and
I think that we're so accustomed
to seeing it in ourselves that we
forget, hey, you have to tell people.
Yeah.
Otherwise, they won't,
they won't understand it.
We don't get to just, you know…
We're not, you know, uh, we don't
have a natural beauty to us.
We have to, like- Right … lay it
out and explain to people kind of, you
know, and why, why we're different.
Yeah.
Maybe not why we're awesome, but, "Hey,
here's what makes us, us different." And-
That, that circles all the way back down
to, or all the way back again to the,
the idea of like we're the professionals.
Mm-hmm.
And we need to communicate that with
how we present ourselves in the house.
This is a unique and rare thing for
the homeowner, but it is an everyday
occurrence for us, and we need to treat it
like we're the professionals that we are.
Yeah.
And, and I think the big thing,
going back to control- Yeah
in the sales process, you know, we, you
know, you, you can be the hero of your
own story and pick us, but, but we need
to have a standard that we set when we
meet the client to go, "Hey, you know,
so happy you called us. This is what's,
this is what you can expect." Right.
"This is what's gonna happen over the
next two hours, and then, you know, maybe
the next few weeks as you make a decision
towards getting your roof replaced or,
you know, getting your well redone or
whatever you're calling to do over there."
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, okay, so la- last question
before we kind of wrap this up.
I mean, what other areas i-
is AI in your business, and
where do you see that moving?
We talked about marketing.
Yeah.
What about just internal processes?
What is happening?
Oh, it's, it's huge.
Um, I mean, I talked, I touched on it
a little bit, but I can't just hire a,
you know, somebody off the street and
make them a lead water well technician.
Right.
They gotta know how to operate
a big, expensive crane, all the
safety concerns that go into that.
They have to know how to do some
unique troubleshooting that's really
only done in, in our discipline.
Uh, and the best way to find that
talent is to make it inside, right?
Mm-hmm.
And you can, I think the, the- Long
story tradition in the trades of
making talent mens, like you give an
apprentice a shovel and tell him to like
shut up and do the grunt work, right?
Right.
Um, which certainly works, right?
It's tried and true.
It will, it will get the job done.
Mm-hmm.
It might not do it quickly,
might not do it effectively.
You might drive off… You, you end up
keeping the real hardheaded stubborn
ones that don't wanna quit, which
in and of itself is a good character
trait, but you drive off people
that wanna, uh, kinda have some more
mastery over their, their skills.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you're just making it really
hard for people- Right … to figure
out what they need to learn, learn it,
and demonstrate it and get through it.
Um, so what, I mean, you mentioned you
have like a really long document of
like procedures that you've written up.
Sure.
Yeah.
We did, too, and, well, I mean, before I
got here, we didn't have anything, but we-
Mm-hmm
sat down over the course of a couple
months, you know, uh, once or twice
a week to sit down and talk through,
like, what should we have as our
standard operating procedures?
How do we- Mm … wanna
make the Flowcore repair?
When we say we're gonna fix a pump, this
is all the standard that we're gonna
put into it, and it will be excellent.
What does that look like, right?
'Cause I can't tell somebody that's never
done a pump repair and say, "I want you
to do excellent work." I have to tell
them, "This is what excellent looks like.
Copy this in everything that you do."
Mm-hmm.
Um, so we spent a long time just
iterating on that and developing a
good standard operating procedure.
Right.
And, but… And then I, I took
it to K- FedEx, right, and had it
printed out in binders, and I- Yeah.
… I got there to the office, I was like
There's a big fat binder with a big-
… long document that nobody's gonna read.
Yeah, right.
How do I actually get this in front of
people in a way that, uh, makes sense?
Mm-hmm.
And I mean, honestly, this is,
like, literally the magic of AI.
Yeah.
I, uh, uploaded this document into,
uh, uh, an AI and I said, "I wanna turn
this into discrete, like, step-by-step,
learn this and be able to talk about
it or demonstrate this specific skill,
and just build me, like, a checklist
to say that, you know, when, when
all the skills are checked off, they
know everything that's in this book."
And it did, and it structured it
into, like, this is what we need
for, like, basic technician or basic
assistant qualification we call it.
So, like, how to get a truck ready,
how to, like, store parts on the
truck, and, uh, and that kind of stuff.
And then, uh, how to be
safe with electricity.
Like, one of the first things you need to
do is not kill yourself on the job, right?
Right.
Yeah.
How to be safe with, like, loads overhead.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then how to start doing
some basic repair actions, how to
do basic troubleshooting actions.
And so we've mapped out, like, this
career progression and this… I borrowed
heavily from Navy pr- like, the Navy
kind of training patterns that I saw.
Um, so we have this entire, like, training
track mapped out that is completely
bespoke to our business, our processes,
our unique challenges, and it's got a
dashboard I can look and make sure people
are making- Right … steady progress.
I can set deadlines for them.
Mm. This is all just stuff I, I asked
AI, "Hey, make this system for me."
I mean, it wasn't just the one question.
It was a couple weeks of-
Yeah … back and forth and iteration
to get to where we're at today.
But, you know, I've talked to, uh, I
wish I could remember the, the, um, the
names of them, but a couple of different,
uh, like, technical training course-
Mm-hmm
…
vendors that, uh, where you can
sign on and learn everything you
need to be a journeyman plumber.
Oh, wow.
Now you can just upload the plumbing code
and tell it to do a bunch of internet
research and make your own courses.
Wow.
And it's just instantaneous.
Yeah.
You don't have, like, that
packaged solution that somebody
used to sell for a lot of money.
I mean, I think those solutions were a
couple hundred bucks a month per seat- Mm.
Mm … right?
Just to train the least
skilled people in my business.
Sure.
I mean, sure they're gonna end up
contributing but, uh, you know,
it's a major investment in the
people that are the least skilled
and not a- adding to my business.
Yeah.
Um, whereas now it's, it's so cheap to
come up with a structured training track.
And what we've found- Yeah … are
the people that show up and really-
Like, look at this as a checklist
and as, like, the go-get list.
Like, this is, these are the things
I need to do, and are driving their
own, uh- Mm … kind of their own path
and their own timeline through that
list are the ones that we really want.
Those are the ones that are
gonna be excellent, right?
Right.
They, they're the go-getters.
That's what they're doing.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
If you don't have that structure
to go get these things, then
they're just frustrated.
Yeah, and they- And they don't wanna
be there … and they leave- Right
… because there's, they don't see a path,
right?
And you're stuck with the guys-
Yeah … that are just bullheaded
enough to wanna grab a shovel and,
and dig- Right … until somebody
tells them to do something else.
Yeah, so with the AI, um, you know, you,
you use those, you know, LLMs, l- Yeah
… as a tool to speed up some processes
that would've taken us a long time.
What about, you know, AI
voice agents and text agents-
Yeah … and online scheduling bots?
I mean, I've talked to some of
those companies, and I, I'm not
sure if it's a problem that needs
solving in our business right now.
Yeah.
We talk about after-hours calls.
I mean, we have a phone
service, but it's a person, and
sometimes not in this country.
And, uh, you know- Yeah … I mean,
we could find better ones, right?
But that's an added cost.
I mean, the AI's getting more affordable.
So do y'all do anything like that?
I mean…
Uh, we do now.
Um- I want to do more of it.
I mean, what I've done so far-
Mm-hmm … on, like, the call center
side is I've taken every single, uh,
call we've ever made or received from
our business and run it through an AI to
get a good transcript, a good sentiment
analysis, a good c- like- Oh, wow.
Yeah … voice identification.
So all of that is, like, captured in
a database, every single call we've
ever made, and it- it's recording.
It- it's doing this on, on future calls.
Um, so now I have this massive
pool of data about how… you
know, what works and what doesn't.
Um, the software, the call software
that we use, kind of built into our,
our dispatching software, it will call a
lead a lead, or an inbound phone call a
lead if it lasts longer than 60 seconds.
Hmm.
A very… It's called a heuristic, right?
Like-
Mm-hmm
…
you know, if you're talking to somebody
for longer than a minute, they're
probably- They're probably, yeah
… interested in doing business with you.
But that's by no means, uh, a, um,
an accurate way to do that analysis.
Mm-hmm.
But if you can r- listen to every
single phone call and actually identify
where they ask for your services and
they haven't scheduled it already,
you can accurately identify a lead.
Now, that means as a, as the
only person who's there to audit
phone calls, I have to go and
listen to every single phone call.
Yeah.
I don't have time for that.
Yeah.
Nobody does.
Uh-huh.
But this is where AI comes in.
You know, what I was talking about
earlier, about- Yeah … being
able to surface that data and
make a good decision quickly.
Like, I can send all those transcripts
to AI and it can say how many phone
calls over the last quarter were actual
customers asking for lead- Ooh … or
for, for work that we do, and that
is a much more accurate definition
of what- Sure … is a lead, right?
It doesn't depend on the, the call
center rep, you know, classifying
or dispositioning a call.
Mm-hmm.
It's just automatically
interpreted from what was said.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
so as a, as an operator, I can get
that information and signal much
faster and much- Right … easier
without the noise of, like, are
people collecting data correctly?
Yeah.
No, that's, that's… Man, it's exciting.
It's exciting to see- Yeah
how the world's gonna change and
how much easier things are gonna be.
The scary thing is the people who
are really good at implementing
these things, they're going to just
kind of take off super fast and-
Yeah
…
beat the comp- competition.
And so it's like we- I mean,
that's the story with anything,
right?
Right.
Yeah.
It j- it just feel, it feels
a little bit, like, scary.
I don't know.
Maybe it's just because it's now, but it
feels like- Well, and the- … it's, it's,
it can be, it can be so much faster now.
The- The, like,
speed kills.
The people that can take a
process and implement it quickly-
Mm-hmm
…
are going to win Right?
And whether that's processes, you know,
implementing just-in-time inventory
standards or Lean Six Sigma process
discipline so that every repair-
Yeah … is, you know, 99.999% reliable.
Mm-hmm.
Or the people that can take an AI process
and drop it into their business faster-
Yeah
…
like, they're going to be the ones
that succeed, and that's, that- Mm
operational change management and ch-
and discipline and focus on procedures
and processes is what wins, and whether
that's pointed at AI and bringing-
Sure … in AI tools or just pointed in
how, you know, what is your repair SOP-
Mm-hmm
…
doesn't matter.
It's that- Yeah … essence of
being operationally disciplined.
I guess I think, too, though, with
especially AI searches, you know-
Yeah
…
um, eventually it's probably going to
move to a pay-to-play model, right?
I mean, maybe.
Probably.
Probably, and so getting in
now and getting, uh, you know,
using the wave of free AI search
probably is gonna help people.
No, you're right.
I mean, I don't think anything is gonna,
is gonna be totally make or break,
but catch a wave at the right time-
Yeah
it can take you a little bit further
than if you're a little bit late, right?
Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
That's like saying that because
there's paid digital ads, you
don't need to worry about SEO.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, all AI, the work- Right … that
you have to do for a good AI
recommendation today before paid
advertisements on the platforms- Mm-hmm
is basically good SEO.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
And maybe extending your SEO from just
your business- Yeah … then into,
like, the Reddits and the Facebooks-
Uh-huh … groups and all this stuff-
Diversify … and public, uh, perception.
But- Yeah … at its essence, it's
that passive advertising versus,
like, versus, like, proactive paid- Mm
direct response advertising.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's
the same thing.
Man, I c- I feel like there's, I
have so much more I could, I could
talk to you- Yeah … about, but I
think we gotta gotta- Gotta wrap this
up … start to wrap the, wrap it up.
Thanks for being here, man.
Um- Yeah, appreciate you- Yeah.
Is there- … having me
in today.
Yeah.
Is there anything, uh, any
messaging you wanna give- Sure.
Yeah … you got a couple cameras here.
Yeah.
If you've got a water well in the
Dallas-Fort Worth area, we're, we're
more than happy to come fix it.
We've launched a, a
plumbing division as well.
Um, water… I don't know if, if
you've seen the inside of a water
heater, but it can get pretty gross,
especially when you're on well water.
That's one of the things we found is a lot
of the… Like, we'll go out, we used to
go out and change pressure tanks that were
full of, of dirt and sand and iron and,
and bacteria and leave the water heaters
alone- Oh, wow … even though they're
holding the same thing in that tank.
Oh, wow.
Uh, so yeah, we've, we've got
into plumbing now, and, uh, we
serve the entire DFW Metroplex.
We're located, uh, over in, in
between Keller and Haslet, kinda
north of Fort Worth, and, um,
but we got a pretty far reach.
Man.
So.
Well, hey, wish the best to you.
Again, thanks for coming in.
Yeah.
To everybody out there listening,
thanks for tuning into Building Dallas.
We're gonna be back with more episodes,
so tune in and we'll see you next time.